7/04/2006

When CATO Speaks People Listen














CATO Says:

"Basically no one is poor in America though andyrand.
I don't believe you could possibly think otherwise."


















"the only reason they are revolted by my phlosophy is because they'd rather be lazy. They'll come around. Too lazy to help your fellow man yourself. Too lazy to help your family yorself. Too lazy to help yourself. Government save me from the bad things about my sloth! "
















"But why should the government put a gun to my head and tell me I should be helping people solely because they made a stupid decision to live in New Orleans? You cannot make such a justification. They are not my problem. "










“there is a segment of the population that your namesake
(Ayn Rand ) refered to as the social ballast.”

63 comments:

Cato said...

Here we have an excellent example of the time and thought that goes into formulating the left's arguments. Cut and paste the other side's arguments of pictures that have nothing to do with the other side, and place them all out of context and laugh! Hahahahahahahahahahahhaa.

I'm done with you.

AndyRand said...

CATO,

Why don't you get your own blog and spout your "moral-philoshophy". Oh that's right you alright have.
At least nobody deleted your comments here and you left of your own volition.
I bid you a fond adieu.

666 said...

So cut-n-paste leads to cut-n-run?

Cato, that's no way to be. I have it from a friend of mine who works in the NSA that Andy Rand was up late finishing of the rest of his Liene's sampler case from the Badger Land Allied Bloggers festival. He might not have been a totally rational idealist like you and me.

Also, on the domestic libertarian question that you keep refusing to answer. My wife read that post last night and, without prompting from me, she pointed out that you tap danced around the question and never answered it. She said you wouldn't answer it because you were "whipped" on the home front. Then she threw her head back, gave out a lusty laugh, ordered me to fix her another drink and told me to light her cigar...

jpn said...

Cato:

You have to watch out what you say to Andy Rand. He's has a heart and soul and has a hard time thinking of all God's children as indidvidual capital acquisition units.

Cato said...

A woman that enjoys cigars eh? Lucky man, even if you have been marked by the Beast. As for me tap dancing around questions, I did not and still do not see any relevance in the question. JPN wants to find where in my life I am a hypocrite, and I say that no matter how much of a hypocrite anyone is it does not detract from where they stand on the issues. So asking the question is pointless. Furthermore, it is pointless because my political life is wholly seperate from my social life. I thought this was the case for everyone, but perhaps those among us who want government intruding in out personal lives don't see a problem with it happening since they cannot seperate political from social lives in the first place.

AndyRand said...

"Andy Rand was up late finishing of the rest of his Liene's sampler case from the Badger Land Allied Bloggers festival."
666,
Your info while true is classified you know.

jpn said...

Cato:

Just so you know you're not alone, I too have hypocritical tendencies. It think that's part of being human.

And, of course, your observation about where I was heading on that domestic libertarian question was correct. As you might agree that the observation that you are a nerf-libertarian also has validity -- especially since your only display of putting your libertarian ideals into place is the "fact" that you don't accept welfare or use public transit. I wonder if that stand on welfare and public transit would change, if there was a major downturn in the economy and your place of business closed and no one would hire you and the mortgage was due and the kids where hungry and you could afford the heat and the electric company was going to shut you off. It's always easier to talk-the-talk libertarian talk when it's all theorethical.

Cato said...

As for me being a "nerf-libertarian" I still don't see how that is apparent, at all. You know next to nothing of me.

Abrham Lincoln, before the onset of the Civil War, addressed the Men's Lyceum:

"There is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law. In any case that arises, as for instance, the promulgation of abolitionism, one of two positions is necessarily true; that is, the thing is right within itself, and therefore deserves the protection of all law and all good citizens; or, it is wrong, and therefore proper to be prohibited by legal enactments; and in neither case, is the interposition of mob law, either necessary, justifiable, or excusable."

I may have grievences with the law. But that does not mean I can disobey to resist it. I work within the political institutions to change it. You make it seem like it's a bad thing I'm a law abiding citizen who is concerned with the government's girth.

As for your example, stuff happens, people deal.

jpn said...

Cato:

I'm detecting a trace of frustration on your part. I don't know what is so hard about admitting you are a hypocrite. I'm a hypocrite and, in one way, shape or form, so are 99.999999% of all other human beings on Earth. We say one thing and do another.

By its nature, majority rule is a lynch mob. If you don't pay your taxes, they will come knocking on your door. Concerning your statement, "You make it seem like it's a bad thing I'm a law abiding citizen who is concerned with the government's girth," I don't know where you are coming from on this. I'm an advocate for as small of government as feasible and I'm also in favor for as few infringements on an individual's life as feasible. Where we disagree is on the smallest and the area of coverage that our government needs to help participate in.

Say your one our Founding Hypocrites like George Mason. He was adidment on fighting for personal liberties and individual rights. I believe he was one of the main architects of the Bill of Rights. Still he owned slaves. He knew the should be set free but couldn't do it. He couldn't do it be cause he was part of the artistocracy that founded this nation. Like Washington, Jefferson, etc., they would have had to join the peasants had they freed their slaves.

What do you think gave them the wherewithal to sit on their ass reading the ideas of the European Enlightenment thinkers and blending those ideas into what would become the United States?

I'm sure you mentioned socialist in one of these comment posts and referred it my way. I think it would be great if we didn't have to have any government-funded social programs, if everybody could pay for their own private education and we were all eating rainbow stew and drinking free Bubble Up. However, there are chinks in the idealistic armour and I believe there is a need for a government social net to help people who have fallen and are having a hard time getting up.

Personally, I never owned slaves and none of the Black people I know picked cotton. But because of slavery and the racism caused by it, Blacks have been and continued to be treated -- in varying degrees -- as second class citizens. They are human beings just like you and me. Have you every read The Autobiography of Booker T. Washington? I think every school student in the US should read that book. There might be a lot less complaining and loafing and at more personal initiative.

What about the American Indians? They were treated like dogs and cattle and some of the result of that is on display over on Franklin Avenue in Minneapolis. Maybe you don't see any responsibility for the ground zero of destitution that is passout on the corner of Franklin and Portland, but its the collective results of the ignorance and arrogance passed down from our Founding Fathers and their predecessors. The American Indians used to be a proud nation of libertarian who've have their spiritual nuts cut off by the rusty razor of capitalist greed.

Good spend a Saturday night at the Union Gospel Mission and talk with the Vets who has stumble off the curb of self-respect, smell the sour wine of no-hope on his breath and listen to him mumble a prayer of thanks to Jesus. Believe me, its ugly, smelly and disheartening business.

Then tell me you don't ride public transportation or accept welfare, because of you selfish, greed ideals of libertarian..."The Virtues of Selfishness" by Ayn Rand.

You can choose to ignore the facts and stand up for your self-righteous idealist of selfishness and greed. That's you libertarian choice. You call them lazy niggers and drunken Indians in the ostrich hole of your conscience, but I can't. Something makes me care for a picture that weighs more than my 216 pounds of Earthly being. There's a whole world out there and there's a big set of problems then are interconnected with an ever expanding set of variables. What worked yesterday ain't working today. What works tomorrow might no work today.

You are right, I know nothing of you. But I don't know enough of where you are coming from to do a little profiling. You are a White male, between the age of 45-55, college educate, work in a professional setting with a computer on your desk which you use all day to do your job, you earn between $60,000-$75,000 annually, you have a wife, two kids and you spend more time on the computer in your spare time than most anybody you know. You grew up in outside Minnesota, used student loans and government grants to get through college. You by your beer by the six packs in bottles and have sex every couple of weeks -- if you have been displaying you domestic libertarian ideals too much around the house. You're also a stinking Viking fan.

Cato said...

I do buy beer in 6 packs, yes.

I still do not see what I need to admit being hypocritical about, since my views on what government ought to do is seperate from everything else in my life.

jpn said...

Cato:

You're off my hook. You don't have to admit anything -- that's your choice.

How did you arrive at your perspective on government? What books and periodicals have lead you to your perspective?

Some of the "libertarian" things I read include Robert Ringer's "Restoring The American Dream," and Reason magazine. "The Road To Serfdom" by Hayek is another. I've also read some of Milton Friedman's books. "Masters of Deceit" by J. Edgar Hoover and "None Dare Call It Treason" are a couple others of interest. These were read back in the early 1980s. What would you suggested list include?

Anonymous said...

Cato,

I suggest the "Pursuit of Happyness" by Charles Gardner.

Cato said...

Well JPN, there are so many factors thathaveshaped my political worldview. One of my favorite reads -- and it is short -- was Fredric Bastiat's The Law. A Frenchman whos writing was cut short by tuberculosis, his writing on what makes a just government should adorn every man's bookshelf. Alas, it is not printed in mass, although you can find it, and many, many other important writings at www.constitution.org

Hayek's Constitution of Liberty is also an excellent read. I read some on the other side as well, including a little book about alternative types of public schools called "Teachers as Owners" by Edward Dirkswager who I had the privledge of meeting a few years ago. It is about teacher professional partnerships. Instead of having an adminstration and beurocratic oversight, teachers contract with a school board. Teachers then decide salary and whatnot, and where the funds should go. If they do not meet the demands of the contract, they are all fired. There are I believe several dozen of these types of schools, manyin this area. Unions hate them ofcourse, since they are about educating children instead of getting better benefits for teachers (Unions are perhaps the worst things a school can have as their purpose is not aligned with what the school's purpose is. I am taking this not from my standpoint (which is that there should be a wall of seperation between school and state) but rather a pragmatic stanpoint. I acknowledge that my stance is not pragmatic, but neither is a pro-union one. In fact, a pro-union one is detremential to student development as the twothings they demand for pay, education of the educator and tenure, have no bearing on student performance outside of the first year of teaching). Anyway, I read all sorts of literature.

jpn said...

Cato:

A couple union questions:
1. Have you ever belonged to a union? (I haven't.)

2. Do you have any positive examples where unions have been or are useful?

Cato said...

No and no. I think children should be able to work in coal mines, so maybe that's why I can't think of any positive examples. Certianly not now of course, I don't even think someone could say that they help with a straight face today since all examples point to practices that have long ago been abolished by improvements in technology.

jpn said...

Cato:

1. Should there be any minimum age for full time work? If a six year old wants to sort coal and get whipped by the overseer, then it is a violation of his personal freedom to force him not to work.

2. Likewise, I'm guessing you'll say there should be no minimum wage because that interfers with the market equilibrium and the factors of production to set the wage rate via perfect competition.

Cato said...

Of course.

But since this blog seeks torespond to another blog that dwells from what I see mainly on schools, I suppose I should ask a question of you. Do you see teacher unions as good or bad? I see them as bad because they place the needs and wants of their members, the teachers, over that of the purpose of the school, which is to educate children. And so, think of the children.

jpn said...

I've for educating the children. I don't see how a teachers' union interfers with the education of students. Obviously there are good points and bad points -- from my perspective -- about teachers' union. One good point is collective bargaining. Without a union, the board would be working out contracts with 100 separate teachers.

Cato said...

Well instead of barganing with the teachers,saying "Hey, you need to improve your students knowledge base in calculus, or you will be getting a pay cut or fired" we instead have bargining between the board and the union. The union cares about education of the educator andtenure, not student performance, when determining pay. There are countless examples of unions opposing merit based pay -- which is how normal world operates. They care about their members. Not about the purpose of the school. Dirkswager is about as liberal as you can get; he wants to save public education. And he says the same thing. Also a good read would be the former dean of the Hubert Humphrey school of Public Policy, John Brandl's Money and Good Intentions are not Enough: or, Why a Liberal Democrat Thinks States Need Both Competition and Community, which discusses, well, the need for competition to make public institutions work. Also Of Knights and Knaves, Pawns and Queens, by a British fellow who's name escapes me at the moment, which talks of how there needs to be choice (think of SS checks... justsend the money, people do with it what they will. Parallel would be like the 150 year old Vermont school voucher program).

http://brookings.nap.edu/books/0815710593/html/index.html

jpn said...

Cato:

My question was how does a teachers' union interfer with the education of students? You are discribing bargaining interaction between the school board and the union, i.e., the representative of the teachers. Teachers interact with students through the classroom education process.

How does the union interfer with this classroom interaction? I am talking about the same student-teacher interaction that goes on in a public or private school setting. Whether you have a union bargaining for the contract for 100 teachers or 100 teachers bargaining for 100 contracts, there is still the teacher-student learning interaction that takes places in the classroom...and we shouldn't forget the parental interaction that takes places in and out of school.

Cato said...

Well it interferes with benefical interaction, by allowing determential interaction to continue. Teachers who are not evaluated on performance are not good for children. Student performace is what is important, is it not? Unions have stood completely against merit-based pay. They stand against testing teachers -- and with good reason. I do beleive about 10 years ago they tested the teachers in Massachuchetts in proficiency their own subjects and over half failed.

So yes, unions do harm student - teacher interactions by keeping bad teachers with jobs. We should NOT care AT ALL about teachers loosing their jobs. You should care whether or not the children are educated. This is where the union fails children and fails the State.

jpn said...

Cato:

1. What proof do you have that teachers covered by a union are less effective that teachers not working under a union?

2. From your perspective, it doesn't make a difference it the union is for teachers or fruit pickers or ignorant coal miners. You are basically against the concept of the collective bargaining principle that is part of having a union. Correct?

parent not teacher said...

Since when is the student off the hook of personal responsibility? I'll relate a story an high school freshman told me. In their math class a majority of students were testing poorly and about 1/4 were getting A's.
The teacher approached this student and asked them what they could do to reach the failing students. The A student's response was "You are doing all you can" they don't want to study and don't care. It's their problem not yours."
It might be said that the teacher did not sufficiently inspire the students. But there has to be a mutual responsiblity students and teachers. If students choose to be lazy and fail, teachers should not pay the price. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

parent not teacher said...

correction:^^^^^
I'll relate a story a high school freshman told me.
Don't want to blame the schools for my typo.

Cato said...

Well of course, but 60% of teachers failing 9th grade proficiency exams have nothing to do with students. But yes, student performance does require action on the students part. Perhaps if from an early age students we taught by good teachers, the occasinal excellent teacher would not be left with a bunch of imbeciles.

I can't believe anyone would be happy with sending their kids to school and allowing them to come home with anything less than straight As. Especiually at a public school, it is not even challenging. And you, me and everyone else are paying for it. I would at least like to see my tax dollarws actually do the work they say it is for, instead of turining out real winners in life.

Perhaps we need to allow corporal punishment back into the schools, and we can hit the students who act like idiots during class time, or at least make them sit in detention for getting Cs and lower, or something along those lines. If you say the teachers are fine, then bring some discipline into these students lives. If you cannot make them disciplined people than you have failed them. Feeding them drugs doesn't work.

JPN --

1. Read the books I've mentioned; the things are in there. I have another but the name escapes me at the momment... I think Teacher Professional Partnerships are a good idea. All are union free, since the teachers did not want the union, and all are achieveing better results than traditional public school partnerships.

2. While true, I am against collective bargining in general, I was specifically addressing how bad it is for teachers to be in a union form a pragmatic standpoint. You make it seem like it would be so horrible for the school board to hire 100 seperate people and negotiate their contracts. How do companies with thousands of employees manage without unions?! Government should not be held hostage by union demands. The taxpayer should reasonably expect that the government is making the best use out of their tax dollars. With unions, they are not.

AndyRand said...

CATO said:

"Perhaps we need to allow corporal punishment back into the schools, and we can hit the students who act like idiots during class time, or at least make them sit in detention for getting Cs and lower, or something along those lines. If you say the teachers are fine, then bring some discipline into these students lives. If you cannot make them disciplined people than you have failed them. Feeding them drugs doesn't work."

I'm with you here. I may lean to the left, but 8 year olds should not be running the show in school. I got wacked a few times for wising off, but I'm not sure I learned any lessons, but that's me.
What you're saying here makes a lot more sense than get rid of "government schools". Maybe your side is just frustrated with not being able to get administrators to use a little common sense. Sometimes the old time "Board of Education", i.e. paddle, is the ticket.

Cato said...

I will be honest, I want to work for end prize of the seperation of school and state. But I am also honest in that I am willing to work with the system in the interim to get it there. I know it will never happen overnight. So I think it is a good thing to offer choice, even if the taxpayer has to foot the bill. Choice makes queens (think chess) our of pawns, and allows people to really take ownership of what they are doing. I personally fancy voucher programs in concert with alternative public schools (such as Teacher Professional Partnerships or Charter schools) to move us to greater choice in public schools.

AndyRand said...

What I'm not buying into is that
competition is the magic bullet that your side thinks it is. I won't accept that students are commodities. I doubt that it's competition that drives you to become more knowledgable. I'm guessing it's a thirst for knowledge. I doubt you get paid more to learn about subjects you have a personal interest in. I instilled in my kid that learning is satifying, fun and interesting from the age of 2 or 3. They are at the top of their class at the public school, and it is challenging.
This accountablity idea of testing kids to judge how teachers are doing
is nonsense. The standardized tests offer no incentive for students to do well, none. Top students don't even put effort into them because they are meaningless to them. Yet this is how we are measuring our schools and teachers.
Unregulated competition has ruined a number of industries in this county.
There is only the incentive to cut costs, not improve quality. Look at the airlines, look at health care.
Nurses used to be treated as professionals, now they are scum. The same for pilots, and teachers.
There's now a nursing shortage and there is nobody willing to accept the pay the institutions who are training them are willing to pay.
We all suffer. And mostly it's the workers. Unbridled competition continues to lower this country's standard of living and erode a once prosperous middle class which unions were largly responsible for creating.
I'll give you an example of how competition has not served the consumer. Cell phones. This industry's promotions and contracts
are misleading in the extreme. For example, I was told when I got mine,
I had 30 days to cancel. In truth you don't. They will not even talk to you about your service until you commit to a 2 year agreement with is tied to your phone's activation. Many find that they cannot cancel there service even after the contract has expired.
Deception like this is rampant, and there is nobody to turn to to for redress these grievences.
Competition does indeed have it's benefits but when taken to extremes it leaves only a few winners and many losers. That's what will happen to the schools if you win your prize. Most people don't buy it, and as the Marshall Fritz article admits , those who believe as you do are a minority.
I hope this doesn't come across as
"hot headed" I'm trying to continue
a civil conversation.
"Teacher Professional Partnerships"
I'm not familiar with this. Care to explain?

Cato said...

The airlines are perhaps one of the most heavily regulated industiries in the country. Bailout after pbailout, and you look at them and show how competition has ruined them? Health care has a immense influx of government funds. Don't tell me that they are not regulated.

Look, with competition, schools will close. That isn't a bad thing.

One time Dennis Hassert said, "every time someone looses a job, the economy suffers." This mentality is flat out wrong. Did the economy suffer when all those people throughout the country a little over a century ago who knew Morse code suddenly found themselves hung up by Alexander Bell?

As for the "standard of living" being lowered, what dfo you mean by this? I suggest The Progress Paradox, by a liberal fellow, which explains why we feel so bad even though life has never been better. Entertaining and informative.

Cell phones indeed can have a lot of fine print, but it is all there. So long as you read it all, you are fine. But that's where they "get you" (even though all of them say on every ad I've seen "with one (ortwo) year service agreement. cost to cancel is 500000000, or something along those lines). If you are so impatient that you cannot wait until you get to a land line to call someone, they know you are not going to read all the fine print. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on y... me... whatever. That is your responsibility.

Anyway, TPP are where teachers come together and basically form a partnership. You know, like a dentist or a law office. They determine how much to pay for various services, who deserves what pay, yadda yadda yadda. There is no principal, and they contract with the school board. School board sets whatever parameters, say "we want your children to increase performance on X test by 5% or your contract is up" and then they do that. Excess money? One TPP could have given themselves bonuses when they had a budget surplus. They instead bought computers for the school. It brings about better things ffrom the teachers, since they feel as though they are running the show (which they are!) and gives them incentive to perform.

AndyRand said...

"As for the "standard of living" being lowered, what dfo you mean by this? I suggest The Progress Paradox, by a liberal fellow, which explains why we feel so bad even though life has never been better. Entertaining and informative."
-----------
What I mean by this is that wage increases don't even keep up with inflation. Health care premiums once covered by employers are now more and more the responsibility of employees, further eating into their
take home pay. Energy prices are skyrocketing and Big oil has never seen larger profits.
A Health care CEO was given over $100 million bonus. After a few million how much does on individual really need? That could buy a lot of health care, and services were surely cut somewhere to afford to pay this guy. Americans have fewer vacation days than ever and they don't even take them for fear of loosing employment. Most families are in debt up to their ears in their attempt to live most entertaining life. Families have less and less expendble income.
As far as entertainment. Look at what passes for entertainment on network TV. Do you call that culture? American Idle. A bunch of nobodys singing cover songs. Not a one has written anything they perform. Have you ever heard of the concept of artificial needs, Herbert Marcuse? These are "needs" created to sustain a system that would otherwise collapse. Do you really need a special "ring tone?"
As for cell phones, I got it to keep track of my offspring. There was no
"fine print". They've done away with the documentation unless you jump through more hoops to acquire it.
You "sign" your contract by hitting
a couple digits on the phone. Not even a possiblility of fine print there. They've analyzed their plans so you pay about the same no matter how you configure it. I have over 7000 roll over minutes, but I can't get a plan with multiple phones and fewer minutes for any less.
Overall the economic condition of most Americans has declined, with the exception of the top few percent.

"Anyway, TPP are where teachers come together and basically form a partnership."
This is an interesting concept. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it.
I do know that several charter schools in MN have been guilty of corruption. I think when you introduce the profit motive into education that is what becomes predominant, not educational quality. I spoke with a recent graduate who is teaching for Sylvan.
They charge $40/hr for tutoring. The
tutors are paid a small fraction of that,plus they are forced to sign an agreement not to tutor independantly.

Cato said...

Sylvan is a buisness. So what?

As for cost of living being so horrible, it costs 1.00 for a loaf os slived bread. Sure, excess may be skyrocketing, but I do not loose any sleep over it. It costs one dollar for a double cheeseburger. You can make a dollar in 10 minutes of work -- crappy work. Janitor work. Work "no one wants."

CEOs have to be paid what they do. Not only is there an immense amount of work going into it, but everything rides on their shoulders. If they did not have such a huge incentive to perform they would go somewhere else. It takes a specific kind of man to be a CEO. I do not think that at this point in my life I could handle it. I suppose some day, but I need to gain even mor ambition than I already have to attain such a goal. They are always deamonized but they are holding the economy together. Workers come dime a dozen, which is why they are paid the way they are. If anyone can do the task you do than you better do it better than everyone else, or the powers that be will reevaluate the situation.

As for big oil, windfalls have a very percise defintion.

windfall: n. money made by someone else.

You think that oil should be priced less? Go run your own oil company.

AndyRand said...

"CEOs have to be paid what they do. Not only is there an immense amount of work going into it, but everything rides on their shoulders. If they did not have such a huge incentive to perform they would go somewhere else. It takes a specific kind of man to be a CEO."

Not much argument about this part. However, studies have shown. ( don't ask me to site them I've heard this in a news report) that there is little or no coorelation between CEO pay, and company performance. (Trust me on this one, I'll bet your heard the same.) Talk about teachers being accountable. Some of these guys drive good companies into the ground and still walk away with millions.
Then you gripe about workers being paid too much.
Janitor work might buy a hamburger.
But it sure won't pay today's rent, or health care.
As for Gas. I suspect some kind of collusion. I think it unlikely that real demand would increase by 1/3 in less than a year. And it's quite a cooincidence that they were given industry specific tax cuts just prior to their Windfall.

Cato said...

Well I'm not going to argue against tax cuts... but there is collusion, yes, but the collusion affects less than 10% of the oil that comes to our shores. Half of our oil is domestically produced. Now yes, OPEC raising prices or limited production rather will cause a slight inflation of the price across the board. Worries about unrest half a world away fuel speculators. BIG OIL (put "big" in front of anything you want to be evil. BIG tobacco. BIG oil. BIG food. BIG government. :o) ) has said they believe 20% or so of the price is speculative. And yes, it is. So your beef is with people in Chicago trading commodities. Yell at them. Oh yeah and there's like 50cents worth of tax, and the federal taxes NEED to be abolished. I'm sick and tired of paying the for BIG Dig.

AndyRand said...

As would be expected we've retreated back to our repective bunkers.
You mention domestic oil. If the US.
allows drilling in ANWAR, what real advantage is that to us as Americans?
The oil and the profits still goes to BIG (I like your thinking here) Oil.
People have a short memory. When they went to Prudoe (sp?) Bay it was sold as American oil independence. In truth it's all sold to the Japanese. Another example of collusion.
Exxon is still fighting to not pay for the cleanup which ruined the local Alaskan economy and that cost would be a fraction of what they are paying their CEO.
As far as gas tax. I'd rather pay it
at the pump to drive on decent roads than to be stopping every mile and a half like near Chicago.
I'm sure you'd rather see CATO CORP.
collecting the fees.;-)

Cato said...

NYThruway is pay everytime you get on and off of it, unlike the geniuses who created a way to have thousands of people have meaningless jobs in Chicago... but I digress...

ANWAR? I really don't care. I don't think the US government should be owning all that land though. Sell it; start to pay off the debt. Simple as that. Since animals are morally insignificant, of course it is a plus for mankind, as we will get some oil out of it no doubt. Maybe even some gold. Sure, a polar bear might be quizzled as to why there is a pipe in the middle of nowhere but it will get over it. And... if it doesn't, it does not matter. It's a polar bear, not a human.

AndyRand said...

Are you just trying to get a rise form me? Why the provocative tone?

I was referring to the fishing economy
managed by humans. That's pretty much the only livelyhood people up there had, Exxon ruined it for them.

You see no value in preserving some land so that the great grand kids can
experience untouched nature?

It's been a long time since I've driven to Chicago, but last I remember the booths were automated.
I'm going to take a breather from this for a while. If you want to pick it up later that's fine.
C,Ya

Cato said...

No one in my family has been to the "untouched wilderness" of Alaska. I've seen pictures though. It's about as wonderful as the Sahara. My grandkids probabbly will not venture to the cold, barren, unimportant landscape of Alaska, and I could care less is the proposed usage of one tenth of 1% of the land goes through. Hell, I'd like it better if it all became a giant uban metropolis. Vast, thousands of miles of city scape. THEN I'd visit, and so would the grandkids.

There are automated ones, but people forget change. There are tellers as well.

As for Exxon ruining their livlihood, there is the courts. Of course, maritime law is special in that "no one owns the sea" since, well, it isn't land, so they might have a hard time unless they can show their poperty was damaged, in my opinion. But I really don't know much about it. Oil spills happen. Most oil spills happen naturally.

World keeps on spinning.

AndyRand said...

I've been there. It's really a once in a lifetime experience. You should try it.
I'm no expert on the years of legal manuevers but, I think that court thing already happened and Exxon is thumbing their nose at the ruling.
Are you really that cold hearted or is that your act? Really. I can see where you'd say things like you do just to rile tree huggers ( I'm not really in that camp ) and left wing
moonbats. Don't think I'm really in that camp either. I prefer to think I'm somewhere in the center.
Talk to you later.

jpn said...

Cato:

On corporal punishment...I'm not convinced it works. In 2nd grade, Sister Vivian Vulture made five of us knee on the playground pavement for the noon hour in the hot late May sun. On crime was laughing in church -- the priests even laughed. She also would take us into the broom closet and slap us till we cried. In 4th grade the nun would bang our heads against the concrete wall and slap us. We were getting tougher by then...we took it and laughed in her face until she left us along and went into the library and cried. By the end of 6th grade the nun slapped me and I took her to fuck off and went home. I transferred to the public school the next year.

In the Hudson Junior High in the late 1960s they would still slap you around. I felt the sting of all kinds of physical punishment in school and I graduated with a 1.9 GPA. In the house I was raise in, the important point was that you graduated. I also worked a full time job most of my senior year and started earning an hourly wage when I was 12.

I graduated from college with a B average and from graduate school with an A average. To think every student should graduate from high school with an A average is one on the silliest pieces of idealistic baloney anyone has ever tried to feed me.

Now, if we totally eliminated teachers' unions, would the cost to the tax payers for public education go up or down?

AndyRand said...

On corporal punishment.....

JPN, I think there's a difference between corporal punishment and abuse.
I remember a priest busting into a room, grabbing me by the neck, banging my head against the wall after I sat on a desk like the teacher told me to.
I think I was just the closest to the door. And this was religious instruction release class. I went to public school.
The football coach who slam kids head against the wall and for some reason they still like him.
In 8th grade I had the audacity to tell the teacher she was accusing the wrong person of talking in class
(even then I stood up for the little guy). I think she was the only teacher I ever had with a moustach.
She asked me if I wanted to teach the class so I did. That lasted a few minutes til I was down in the vice principal's office getting wacked with the "Board of Education" which had holes drilled in it to lower wind resistance. Of course, after that you turn to them and say
'is that all you got". You get another wack for the remark. But I left with my head held high and my ass aching.
After all that I'm not sure why but I agree with CATO. Now the kids have no respect for the teachers and they know they can't do anything about it.
I at least thought twice about being a wise guy.

Cato said...

I don't know, but at least we'd be paying people what they deserve. If they are good, then they deserve more pay. If they are bad, decrease the pay or fire them. I think you are trying to tell me that it is necessary to keep bad teachers employed to keep costs down for taxpayers. Am I wrong?

I say people "should" get straight As because grade school and high school in this country are jokes. There is nothing to it. You go to school for half a year, for part of a day, and there is a real lack of a challenge. I think the problem there lies not with the teachers but with the entire public education system.

Now JPN, only people that misbehaved got slapped around. Perhaps you just don't take direction well; and making nuns cry, for shame. It is a good life lesson that children are being denied by not getting the five across the eyes. It is far superior than doping up our kids like we do now, then tell them to not do other types of drugs.

andyrand, yes, I enjoy poking fun at hippies. I don't see how one can come to the conslusion, however, that I am coldhearted just because I do not care about amoral creatures. In fact, I said only moral humans are important. How much "warm-hearted" can one be?

AndyRand said...

CATO Says:
"andyrand, yes, I enjoy poking fun at hippies."

Well you're at the right place then.

The thing I find interesting about you CATO is that you really seem to believe that the world functions justly. That may be a noble ideal, but it just ain't so. People aren't rewarded justly for doing a good job. Usually their reward is that they get to do more than the slack off and do it for the same or less pay.
There are a few teachers who are atrocious who find protection because of the union rules. But they are few far between. I can think of one who parents complained vehemently and justly about. But most are nothing like that.

Not everyone in the world is a brilliant as the 3 of us you know CATO. Just this weekend, someone who will remain nameless, a graduate of Cretin, admitted to asking "Why do they call it South America, it's still America isn't it? " Honest to God.
So don't expect everyone getting A's. If you compare us to Europe though you have a point. The Fins are all wizzes at math and science and everyone speaks English and their native language. But why would you expect less from socialist country? :-)

Cato said...

A dog eating itself will one day find itself out of meat. Starved animals are also quite dangerous, and it will all come to a cataclysmic end some day in the next thirty years... but enough of that. If I continue speaking of such things the one with the mark of The Beast with opine with some non sequitur.

As for the world not acting justly in regards to rewarding people who deserve it, it is not my problem if a person cannot make a case for their own worth. That is their personal problem.

AndyRand said...

Cato:

" dog eating itself will one day find itself out of meat."

I don't think that explains the superiority of the Finnish schools in math & science. It's a fact, look it up . I have internet buddies from Finland who are extraordinarly talented in math , and it seems pretty common over there.

Can I seriously ask you a question?
Please give a serious and non evasive reply.
Why do you dispise government so, I mean on a personal level?
I have a certain distain for coporate America because in my opinion they treat people like commodities, like widgits to be used and discarded. So what's up with you
and the government? Some extremely negative experience? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

Cato said...

I do not despise government. I despise bad government; I am not an anarchist.

As for the Fins, temporary superiority is great. Too bad it's temporary since a dog eating itself will run out of meat.

jpn said...

Concerning corporeal punishment, I friend of nime teachers in a public schools in Oregon and they have formalized corporeal punishment. There's a multiple step-process that is documented with parental notification as to the eventual results of a continued behavior problem. The end result is a meeting with the principal and the "board of education."

What I described above is sadistic abuse by nuns that would be dished out for infractions as petty as a book not being covered up to a nun's shifting expectations. Likewise, some of the abuse was handed out based on the behavior of your older brothers in previous classes with the nun. Times were different then.

I can't imagine fromalized corporeal punishment being adopted in locally and I'm quite surprised that Cato would suggest it. Afterall, that would be another addition to big government. Isn't parenting supposed to be done at home? If Cato expects 100 percent straight A students, the schools should expect students to come to class totally prepared to learn.

Cato said...

JPN, I was addressing the concerns of a "parent not teacher" who thinks that teachers were getting a bad rap and we should be dealing with idiot kids. Drugs are not working, I do not know exaclty what would, but discipline is a good thing for kids to have and would keep them in line. Considering that I would like to see a seperation of school and state, I don't see how you could possibly suggest that this would be viewed as, by any reasonable reading of what I have said, another addition to big government. I really have no intrest in discussing the subject further, it was merely a comment I made to one person that does not flow with the overall thread, which is about how when I speak people listen.

Although one thing... yes, parenting should be done at home. As should alot of other things that are not the responsibility of the state. Like having a job to provide for your own family, and not relying on the state for any assistance. Removing responsibility from people in some areas never makes them more responsible in others. It makes them less responsible since they know there is a so-called saftey net.

AndyRand said...

CATO:

You may think it's temorary in theory
But in an information economy, you could be sadly mistaken.
See:

http://tinylink.com/?JicD4UKyJu

Finland has the good sense to invest in their #1 resource, their citizens.
Why are Finns doing so well in education when they have a huge safety net. Maybe it's because they
can concentrate on their work and not be worried about what devasting
economic catastophe will befall them.

AndyRand said...

CATO said:
"I do not despise government. I despise bad government; I am not an anarchist."

You don't create good government by
drowing it in a bathtub.
I'll take you at your word that you don't hate government, but to those who don't hold your world view your statements indicate otherwise.

Cato said...

No, I am still right. Why? Because money does not grow on trees. Do you not understand? Socialism is NOT a perpetual motion machine. It needs inputs. The birthrate, the shrugging of atlas, and the high costs of welfare will all catch up to them. Their birthrate is not enough to keep their population constant, let alone grow, Atlas is shrugging in that innovation all goes to freer shores (while we are freer than Europe, we too will loose Atlas. The news calls it "outsourcing of American."), and the costs of healthcare, education, etc, of an aging classs will cripple what is left of the working class. So the dog will starve, and a starving dog lashes out if it needs food, as history has shown to have happened repeatedly in Europe.

As for the bathtub, I want government's face right above the water. Not drowning it. We want it tothe size where we CAN drown it, if necessary.

jpn said...

Cato:

If we transitioned over to a voucher system that totally funded over K-12 education system, we would eliminate "government" schools. However, we would still have government-funded schools. With this type of system, would you still not expect government oversight and expectations from these privately-run, government-funded schools?

AndyRand said...

CATO:

One thing I've learned from you is that you are always right.(pun intended). When facts get in your way you just ignore the issue.
As in the Marshall Fritz article.

The real "hungry dogs" are already looking for a meal, in Mexico for example where we breed them. Oil doesn't grow on trees either. But nobody is making real plans for when it runs out.

How many aging do we need to educate? Healthcare yes, but education?

Cato said...

What Fritz article are you talking about?

Oil will never run out, and it will not even get scarce in our lifetime. It may get expensive though, but unlike money, it is a commodity and is therefore impossible to use all up. It will become in the distant, distant future a scarce commodity (we've been nearing "peak oil" for decades, but the damndest thing keeps on happening. They keep find more. Like in Mexico, for example, where they believe they found the largest field, ever. 3 miles deep but still there, found this year).

The yougins need edumacation in order to keep up that IT buisness. It's a high spped public train which will crash into a wall one day. And the traitors in charge will create Marshall Plan II I'm sure...

Voucher programs yes would remove government schools but still put government money into the system. Until the ACLU starts a hissy fit and the Despotic Branch gives into their demands, the money should not be tied to government regulations. Easy way around that of course, is to end the illegal Federal funding of schools. This says nothing of state level funding, which is a policy issue. But at a Federal level it is illegal.

AndyRand said...

"What Fritz article are you talking about?"

The one that's posted in the
"Commenter Fact Check" that some commenter called into questioned how many or your sort are out bashing public schools"

You must be talking about all that money that evaporated in the dot com bust and is evaporating in the housing boom. That doesn't grow on trees does it? It grows on paper.

JPN said...

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what's for lunch."

Marshall Fritz
---
Concerning the eating himself...theorethically, a dog could eat himnself and not run out of meat. I depends on the rate of consumptions.

Cato said...

No, actually I am not.

AndyRand said...

Not what?

Cato said...

jpn-

Since government produces no money, only redistributes it, it is impossible.

AndyRand said...

Sorry CATO but I'm not going to lie down on this one.

Government can and does create the conditions and inferstructure that make stimulate wealth creation. Take Hudson for example. I've been there since before the interstate was built there.
That government road may be the greatest factor in creating growth in Hudson.

Cato said...

By siphoning it from other places. It creates nothing, it redistributes.

AndyRand said...

It created opportunity.
We couldn't support 16 coffee shops and
50 pizza joints without the interstate:-)

jpn said...

Cato:

You've wandered hopelessly away from the original tread of this post. Maybe you and Andy Rand hit the public highway and had pizza for lunch...

Concerning the post-government school world you envision, when the governement is paying private concerns to management and provide the education of our children...a couple of questions that I'd like your predication on:

1. All things being equal, will teachers get paid more or less than they do now?

2. All things being equal, will I as a taxpayers pay more or less in taxes?

Don't let that Andy Rand sidetrack you. I've never seen him in person, but I think he's an old hippie who doesn't like hippy jokes. I'm not sure, but suspect both you and him are Minnesota Vikings fans...

Cato said...

Well JPN, we did "wander hopelessly away," but of course, your questions do not really go to the start of the thread either. Perhaps it is akin to a teenage IM session...

Will teachers be paid more or less? Well, it all depends on what the market will bear. I'd imagine less though.

Will taxpayers pay less? Well, in the end they will pay nothing, but in the interim it would again be less. Competition dear JPN keeps costs at their lowest possible point.

And, as I already stated, I do not like the Vikings.