tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post115164397295611011..comments2023-10-06T01:45:50.515-07:00Comments on Above The Borderline: When CATO Speaks People ListenUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152313586586585042006-07-07T16:06:00.000-07:002006-07-07T16:06:00.000-07:00Cato:You've wandered hopelessly away from the orig...Cato:<BR/><BR/>You've wandered hopelessly away from the original tread of this post. Maybe you and Andy Rand hit the public highway and had pizza for lunch...<BR/><BR/>Concerning the post-government school world you envision, when the governement is paying private concerns to management and provide the education of our children...a couple of questions that I'd like your predication on:<BR/><BR/>1. All things being equal, will teachers get paid more or less than they do now?<BR/><BR/>2. All things being equal, will I as a taxpayers pay more or less in taxes?<BR/><BR/>Don't let that Andy Rand sidetrack you. I've never seen him in person, but I think he's an old hippie who doesn't like hippy jokes. I'm not sure, but suspect both you and him are Minnesota Vikings fans...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152304394715551652006-07-07T13:33:00.000-07:002006-07-07T13:33:00.000-07:00It created opportunity.We couldn't support 16 coff...It created opportunity.<BR/>We couldn't support 16 coffee shops and<BR/>50 pizza joints without the interstate:-)Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152303008523539862006-07-07T13:10:00.000-07:002006-07-07T13:10:00.000-07:00Sorry CATO but I'm not going to lie down on this o...Sorry CATO but I'm not going to lie down on this one.<BR/><BR/>Government can and does create the conditions and inferstructure that make stimulate wealth creation. Take Hudson for example. I've been there since before the interstate was built there.<BR/>That government road may be the greatest factor in creating growth in Hudson.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152301420790122192006-07-07T12:43:00.000-07:002006-07-07T12:43:00.000-07:00Not what?Not what?Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152300643544648012006-07-07T12:30:00.000-07:002006-07-07T12:30:00.000-07:00"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to dec..."Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what's for lunch."<BR/><BR/>Marshall Fritz<BR/>---<BR/>Concerning the eating himself...theorethically, a dog could eat himnself and not run out of meat. I depends on the rate of consumptions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152299532792772602006-07-07T12:12:00.000-07:002006-07-07T12:12:00.000-07:00"What Fritz article are you talking about?"The one..."What Fritz article are you talking about?"<BR/><BR/>The one that's posted in the <BR/> "Commenter Fact Check" that some commenter called into questioned how many or your sort are out bashing public schools"<BR/><BR/>You must be talking about all that money that evaporated in the dot com bust and is evaporating in the housing boom. That doesn't grow on trees does it? It grows on paper.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152295454757620252006-07-07T11:04:00.000-07:002006-07-07T11:04:00.000-07:00CATO:One thing I've learned from you is that you a...CATO:<BR/><BR/>One thing I've learned from you is that you are always right.(pun intended). When facts get in your way you just ignore the issue. <BR/>As in the Marshall Fritz article.<BR/><BR/>The real "hungry dogs" are already looking for a meal, in Mexico for example where we breed them. Oil doesn't grow on trees either. But nobody is making real plans for when it runs out.<BR/><BR/>How many aging do we need to educate? Healthcare yes, but education?Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152292042504990822006-07-07T10:07:00.000-07:002006-07-07T10:07:00.000-07:00Cato:If we transitioned over to a voucher system t...Cato:<BR/><BR/>If we transitioned over to a voucher system that totally funded over K-12 education system, we would eliminate "government" schools. However, we would still have government-funded schools. With this type of system, would you still not expect government oversight and expectations from these privately-run, government-funded schools?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152285554411099512006-07-07T08:19:00.000-07:002006-07-07T08:19:00.000-07:00CATO said:"I do not despise government. I despise ...CATO said:<BR/>"I do not despise government. I despise bad government; I am not an anarchist."<BR/><BR/>You don't create good government by <BR/>drowing it in a bathtub.<BR/>I'll take you at your word that you don't hate government, but to those who don't hold your world view your statements indicate otherwise.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152285346001985072006-07-07T08:15:00.000-07:002006-07-07T08:15:00.000-07:00CATO:You may think it's temorary in theoryBut in a...CATO:<BR/><BR/>You may think it's temorary in theory<BR/>But in an information economy, you could be sadly mistaken.<BR/>See:<BR/><BR/>http://tinylink.com/?JicD4UKyJu <BR/><BR/>Finland has the good sense to invest in their #1 resource, their citizens.<BR/>Why are Finns doing so well in education when they have a huge safety net. Maybe it's because they <BR/>can concentrate on their work and not be worried about what devasting<BR/>economic catastophe will befall them.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152283212583247882006-07-07T07:40:00.000-07:002006-07-07T07:40:00.000-07:00Concerning corporeal punishment, I friend of nime ...Concerning corporeal punishment, I friend of nime teachers in a public schools in Oregon and they have formalized corporeal punishment. There's a multiple step-process that is documented with parental notification as to the eventual results of a continued behavior problem. The end result is a meeting with the principal and the "board of education." <BR/><BR/>What I described above is sadistic abuse by nuns that would be dished out for infractions as petty as a book not being covered up to a nun's shifting expectations. Likewise, some of the abuse was handed out based on the behavior of your older brothers in previous classes with the nun. Times were different then.<BR/><BR/>I can't imagine fromalized corporeal punishment being adopted in locally and I'm quite surprised that Cato would suggest it. Afterall, that would be another addition to big government. Isn't parenting supposed to be done at home? If Cato expects 100 percent straight A students, the schools should expect students to come to class totally prepared to learn.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152251402411136282006-07-06T22:50:00.000-07:002006-07-06T22:50:00.000-07:00Cato:" dog eating itself will one day find itself ...Cato:<BR/><BR/>" dog eating itself will one day find itself out of meat."<BR/><BR/>I don't think that explains the superiority of the Finnish schools in math & science. It's a fact, look it up . I have internet buddies from Finland who are extraordinarly talented in math , and it seems pretty common over there.<BR/> <BR/>Can I seriously ask you a question?<BR/>Please give a serious and non evasive reply.<BR/>Why do you dispise government so, I mean on a personal level?<BR/>I have a certain distain for coporate America because in my opinion they treat people like commodities, like widgits to be used and discarded. So what's up with you <BR/>and the government? Some extremely negative experience? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152241652515729182006-07-06T20:07:00.000-07:002006-07-06T20:07:00.000-07:00CATO Says:"andyrand, yes, I enjoy poking fun at hi...CATO Says:<BR/>"andyrand, yes, I enjoy poking fun at hippies."<BR/><BR/>Well you're at the right place then.<BR/><BR/>The thing I find interesting about you CATO is that you really seem to believe that the world functions justly. That may be a noble ideal, but it just ain't so. People aren't rewarded justly for doing a good job. Usually their reward is that they get to do more than the slack off and do it for the same or less pay.<BR/>There are a few teachers who are atrocious who find protection because of the union rules. But they are few far between. I can think of one who parents complained vehemently and justly about. But most are nothing like that.<BR/><BR/>Not everyone in the world is a brilliant as the 3 of us you know CATO. Just this weekend, someone who will remain nameless, a graduate of Cretin, admitted to asking "Why do they call it South America, it's still America isn't it? " Honest to God.<BR/>So don't expect everyone getting A's. If you compare us to Europe though you have a point. The Fins are all wizzes at math and science and everyone speaks English and their native language. But why would you expect less from socialist country? :-)Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152239202901855342006-07-06T19:26:00.000-07:002006-07-06T19:26:00.000-07:00On corporal punishment.....JPN, I think there's a ...On corporal punishment.....<BR/><BR/>JPN, I think there's a difference between corporal punishment and abuse.<BR/>I remember a priest busting into a room, grabbing me by the neck, banging my head against the wall after I sat on a desk like the teacher told me to.<BR/>I think I was just the closest to the door. And this was religious instruction release class. I went to public school.<BR/>The football coach who slam kids head against the wall and for some reason they still like him.<BR/>In 8th grade I had the audacity to tell the teacher she was accusing the wrong person of talking in class <BR/>(even then I stood up for the little guy). I think she was the only teacher I ever had with a moustach.<BR/>She asked me if I wanted to teach the class so I did. That lasted a few minutes til I was down in the vice principal's office getting wacked with the "Board of Education" which had holes drilled in it to lower wind resistance. Of course, after that you turn to them and say <BR/>'is that all you got". You get another wack for the remark. But I left with my head held high and my ass aching.<BR/>After all that I'm not sure why but I agree with CATO. Now the kids have no respect for the teachers and they know they can't do anything about it.<BR/>I at least thought twice about being a wise guy.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152238046612439102006-07-06T19:07:00.000-07:002006-07-06T19:07:00.000-07:00Cato:On corporal punishment...I'm not convinced it...Cato:<BR/><BR/>On corporal punishment...I'm not convinced it works. In 2nd grade, Sister Vivian Vulture made five of us knee on the playground pavement for the noon hour in the hot late May sun. On crime was laughing in church -- the priests even laughed. She also would take us into the broom closet and slap us till we cried. In 4th grade the nun would bang our heads against the concrete wall and slap us. We were getting tougher by then...we took it and laughed in her face until she left us along and went into the library and cried. By the end of 6th grade the nun slapped me and I took her to fuck off and went home. I transferred to the public school the next year. <BR/><BR/>In the Hudson Junior High in the late 1960s they would still slap you around. I felt the sting of all kinds of physical punishment in school and I graduated with a 1.9 GPA. In the house I was raise in, the important point was that you graduated. I also worked a full time job most of my senior year and started earning an hourly wage when I was 12.<BR/><BR/>I graduated from college with a B average and from graduate school with an A average. To think every student should graduate from high school with an A average is one on the silliest pieces of idealistic baloney anyone has ever tried to feed me.<BR/><BR/>Now, if we totally eliminated teachers' unions, would the cost to the tax payers for public education go up or down?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152224124053303932006-07-06T15:15:00.000-07:002006-07-06T15:15:00.000-07:00I've been there. It's really a once in a lifetime ...I've been there. It's really a once in a lifetime experience. You should try it.<BR/>I'm no expert on the years of legal manuevers but, I think that court thing already happened and Exxon is thumbing their nose at the ruling.<BR/>Are you really that cold hearted or is that your act? Really. I can see where you'd say things like you do just to rile tree huggers ( I'm not really in that camp ) and left wing<BR/> moonbats. Don't think I'm really in that camp either. I prefer to think I'm somewhere in the center.<BR/>Talk to you later.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152219438540997942006-07-06T13:57:00.000-07:002006-07-06T13:57:00.000-07:00Are you just trying to get a rise form me? Why the...Are you just trying to get a rise form me? Why the provocative tone?<BR/><BR/>I was referring to the fishing economy <BR/>managed by humans. That's pretty much the only livelyhood people up there had, Exxon ruined it for them.<BR/><BR/>You see no value in preserving some land so that the great grand kids can<BR/>experience untouched nature?<BR/><BR/>It's been a long time since I've driven to Chicago, but last I remember the booths were automated.<BR/>I'm going to take a breather from this for a while. If you want to pick it up later that's fine.<BR/>C,YaAndy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152218439316103542006-07-06T13:40:00.000-07:002006-07-06T13:40:00.000-07:00As would be expected we've retreated back to our r...As would be expected we've retreated back to our repective bunkers.<BR/>You mention domestic oil. If the US.<BR/>allows drilling in ANWAR, what real advantage is that to us as Americans?<BR/>The oil and the profits still goes to BIG (I like your thinking here) Oil.<BR/>People have a short memory. When they went to Prudoe (sp?) Bay it was sold as American oil independence. In truth it's all sold to the Japanese. Another example of collusion.<BR/>Exxon is still fighting to not pay for the cleanup which ruined the local Alaskan economy and that cost would be a fraction of what they are paying their CEO.<BR/>As far as gas tax. I'd rather pay it<BR/>at the pump to drive on decent roads than to be stopping every mile and a half like near Chicago.<BR/>I'm sure you'd rather see CATO CORP.<BR/>collecting the fees.;-)Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152216633628118162006-07-06T13:10:00.000-07:002006-07-06T13:10:00.000-07:00"CEOs have to be paid what they do. Not only is th..."CEOs have to be paid what they do. Not only is there an immense amount of work going into it, but everything rides on their shoulders. If they did not have such a huge incentive to perform they would go somewhere else. It takes a specific kind of man to be a CEO."<BR/><BR/>Not much argument about this part. However, studies have shown. ( don't ask me to site them I've heard this in a news report) that there is little or no coorelation between CEO pay, and company performance. (Trust me on this one, I'll bet your heard the same.) Talk about teachers being accountable. Some of these guys drive good companies into the ground and still walk away with millions. <BR/>Then you gripe about workers being paid too much.<BR/>Janitor work might buy a hamburger.<BR/>But it sure won't pay today's rent, or health care. <BR/>As for Gas. I suspect some kind of collusion. I think it unlikely that real demand would increase by 1/3 in less than a year. And it's quite a cooincidence that they were given industry specific tax cuts just prior to their Windfall.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152214466878705402006-07-06T12:34:00.000-07:002006-07-06T12:34:00.000-07:00"As for the "standard of living" being lowered, wh..."As for the "standard of living" being lowered, what dfo you mean by this? I suggest The Progress Paradox, by a liberal fellow, which explains why we feel so bad even though life has never been better. Entertaining and informative."<BR/>-----------<BR/>What I mean by this is that wage increases don't even keep up with inflation. Health care premiums once covered by employers are now more and more the responsibility of employees, further eating into their <BR/>take home pay. Energy prices are skyrocketing and Big oil has never seen larger profits.<BR/>A Health care CEO was given over $100 million bonus. After a few million how much does on individual really need? That could buy a lot of health care, and services were surely cut somewhere to afford to pay this guy. Americans have fewer vacation days than ever and they don't even take them for fear of loosing employment. Most families are in debt up to their ears in their attempt to live most entertaining life. Families have less and less expendble income.<BR/>As far as entertainment. Look at what passes for entertainment on network TV. Do you call that culture? American Idle. A bunch of nobodys singing cover songs. Not a one has written anything they perform. Have you ever heard of the concept of artificial needs, Herbert Marcuse? These are "needs" created to sustain a system that would otherwise collapse. Do you really need a special "ring tone?"<BR/>As for cell phones, I got it to keep track of my offspring. There was no<BR/>"fine print". They've done away with the documentation unless you jump through more hoops to acquire it.<BR/>You "sign" your contract by hitting <BR/>a couple digits on the phone. Not even a possiblility of fine print there. They've analyzed their plans so you pay about the same no matter how you configure it. I have over 7000 roll over minutes, but I can't get a plan with multiple phones and fewer minutes for any less.<BR/>Overall the economic condition of most Americans has declined, with the exception of the top few percent.<BR/><BR/>"Anyway, TPP are where teachers come together and basically form a partnership."<BR/>This is an interesting concept. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it.<BR/>I do know that several charter schools in MN have been guilty of corruption. I think when you introduce the profit motive into education that is what becomes predominant, not educational quality. I spoke with a recent graduate who is teaching for Sylvan.<BR/>They charge $40/hr for tutoring. The <BR/>tutors are paid a small fraction of that,plus they are forced to sign an agreement not to tutor independantly.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152211106592217312006-07-06T11:38:00.000-07:002006-07-06T11:38:00.000-07:00What I'm not buying into is that competition is th...What I'm not buying into is that <BR/>competition is the magic bullet that your side thinks it is. I won't accept that students are commodities. I doubt that it's competition that drives you to become more knowledgable. I'm guessing it's a thirst for knowledge. I doubt you get paid more to learn about subjects you have a personal interest in. I instilled in my kid that learning is satifying, fun and interesting from the age of 2 or 3. They are at the top of their class at the public school, and it is challenging.<BR/>This accountablity idea of testing kids to judge how teachers are doing<BR/>is nonsense. The standardized tests offer no incentive for students to do well, none. Top students don't even put effort into them because they are meaningless to them. Yet this is how we are measuring our schools and teachers. <BR/>Unregulated competition has ruined a number of industries in this county. <BR/>There is only the incentive to cut costs, not improve quality. Look at the airlines, look at health care.<BR/>Nurses used to be treated as professionals, now they are scum. The same for pilots, and teachers.<BR/>There's now a nursing shortage and there is nobody willing to accept the pay the institutions who are training them are willing to pay.<BR/>We all suffer. And mostly it's the workers. Unbridled competition continues to lower this country's standard of living and erode a once prosperous middle class which unions were largly responsible for creating. <BR/>I'll give you an example of how competition has not served the consumer. Cell phones. This industry's promotions and contracts<BR/>are misleading in the extreme. For example, I was told when I got mine,<BR/>I had 30 days to cancel. In truth you don't. They will not even talk to you about your service until you commit to a 2 year agreement with is tied to your phone's activation. Many find that they cannot cancel there service even after the contract has expired.<BR/>Deception like this is rampant, and there is nobody to turn to to for redress these grievences.<BR/>Competition does indeed have it's benefits but when taken to extremes it leaves only a few winners and many losers. That's what will happen to the schools if you win your prize. Most people don't buy it, and as the Marshall Fritz article admits , those who believe as you do are a minority.<BR/>I hope this doesn't come across as <BR/>"hot headed" I'm trying to continue <BR/>a civil conversation.<BR/>"Teacher Professional Partnerships"<BR/>I'm not familiar with this. Care to explain?Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152205820680876752006-07-06T10:10:00.000-07:002006-07-06T10:10:00.000-07:00CATO said:"Perhaps we need to allow corporal punis...CATO said:<BR/><BR/>"Perhaps we need to allow corporal punishment back into the schools, and we can hit the students who act like idiots during class time, or at least make them sit in detention for getting Cs and lower, or something along those lines. If you say the teachers are fine, then bring some discipline into these students lives. If you cannot make them disciplined people than you have failed them. Feeding them drugs doesn't work."<BR/><BR/>I'm with you here. I may lean to the left, but 8 year olds should not be running the show in school. I got wacked a few times for wising off, but I'm not sure I learned any lessons, but that's me. <BR/>What you're saying here makes a lot more sense than get rid of "government schools". Maybe your side is just frustrated with not being able to get administrators to use a little common sense. Sometimes the old time "Board of Education", i.e. paddle, is the ticket.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152203222821720092006-07-06T09:27:00.000-07:002006-07-06T09:27:00.000-07:00correction:^^^^^I'll relate a story a high school ...correction:^^^^^<BR/>I'll relate a story a high school freshman told me. <BR/>Don't want to blame the schools for my typo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152201212537145612006-07-06T08:53:00.000-07:002006-07-06T08:53:00.000-07:00Since when is the student off the hook of personal...Since when is the student off the hook of personal responsibility? I'll relate a story an high school freshman told me. In their math class a majority of students were testing poorly and about 1/4 were getting A's.<BR/>The teacher approached this student and asked them what they could do to reach the failing students. The A student's response was "You are doing all you can" they don't want to study and don't care. It's their problem not yours."<BR/>It might be said that the teacher did not sufficiently inspire the students. But there has to be a mutual responsiblity students and teachers. If students choose to be lazy and fail, teachers should not pay the price. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1152200267341277432006-07-06T08:37:00.000-07:002006-07-06T08:37:00.000-07:00Cato:1. What proof do you have that teachers cover...Cato:<BR/><BR/>1. What proof do you have that teachers covered by a union are less effective that teachers not working under a union?<BR/><BR/>2. From your perspective, it doesn't make a difference it the union is for teachers or fruit pickers or ignorant coal miners. You are basically against the concept of the collective bargaining principle that is part of having a union. Correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com