Open Letter to the Hudson Anti-School Choice Apologists
Below is an "open letter" from the OTBL'ers to folks like us. The title is misleading, since it isn't actually open since only a select, controled group of yes-men are allowed into their blog house. But the paranoid cower behind their locked doors and do all in their power to keep the light of debate and discussion away from the darkness hiding inside their door. We can discuss this topic in an intelligent, rational manner...I think. Likewise, the OTBL'ers, as always are welcome to join us in the discussion.
JPN aka dratsum
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Filed under: General, News, Education General --- INhyphenTHEhyphenKNOW @ 6:50
Opponents of school choice often claim that it will destroy the public schools, as they think students will leave for private options. Notwithstanding the pure irony of this argument (in his 1994 book School Choice, David Harmer writes: "If students can’t wait to leave, what does that say about the quality of schools? That is an argument for school choice, not against it. The exodus argument sounds like the old East German regime talking about the Berlin Wall: if we take it down, everyone will leave. Exactly; that is precisely why it should come down."), studies have shown that competition forces public schools to improve immensely so they can retain their student population. According to World magazine (July 1, 2000), in Florida, where a voucher system has been instituted, even the mere hint at opening competition among schools caused the public schools to seek improvements and become more effective in their academics and administration.
In addition, those who warn that vouchers or tax credits will not cover transportation costs of students need to keep this in mind: a competitive market will invite a number of new schools to open across existing districts. To get the competitive edge, many competing schools will also offer transportation to students who do not live in the immediate area. Options and services increase as the market operates freely.
By denying parents the right to a competitive product, the government system of schools continues to provide low-performing, unsafe, and inefficient schools. Granted, there are many fine public schools in the country that truly prepare children for life with a solid education, but there are just as many that do not, making the case for competition even more sensible. The answer is not pumping more tax money into a command system; the failed socialist experiments of Eastern Europe have proven that no matter how much money is budgeted for a government program, it is the lack of competition that causes such systems to become unaccountable to its forced consumers.
It is time for this unnatural monopoly to be stripped of its exclusive supply of education. Competition through school choice will accomplish just that.
18 comments:
I'm confused as to why the I-T-Know doesn't think there is choice in education. You can send you children to whatever school you chosse. It seems simple enough to me. If you don't choose to send you kids to public schools, then send them to a private school.
That's like saying I don't like the roads between New Richmond and Hudson. We need to be able to choose the road we drive on. We'll I'd say, if you don't like the roads, build your own. Acquire the land and pave your road.
This reiterates what I have been saying for quite some time. The true nature of an institution is not found in statistics which can be manipulated; it is found in the actions of those who defend it.
Since it's time for redundancy time, I'll repeat what I've said before:
"You believe that if only the invisible hairy three fingered claw of the market would reign over education, somehow a utopia of learning would follow.
In the days of aristocracy this mythical market of yours ruled with an iron fist to keep the lowly subdued and ignorant. There is no reason to think that if your utopian pipedream of market based education would become a reality that the same end would not result. "
To the OTBL Enemies of Public Education:
I attended Parent Teacher Conferences this Thursday.
One teacher explained how he was conveying to his students
the persuasion techniques taught by Socrates and Aristotle.
A second told me how they'd be looking forward to having
my child in their AP Calculus class.
A third explained how students were learning to render overlapping
translucent objects in their pencil drawings.
And finally with another teacher I dicussed the bizarre blend of Communism and Capitalism
in China and how students would be examining this in the context of
the Hong Kong turn over.
You say: "the government system of schools continues to provide
low-performing, unsafe, and inefficient schools."
What I encountered at Parent Teacher Conferences nothing close to what
you claim.
After reading your blathering for over a year now, I was starting to
think there was a possiblity that parts of you arguement could have
merit. I have no such delusions after my last teacher conference.
I also heard about how an elementary
school teacher had to call in councelors to meet with the parents of a disruptive student. The main goal was to try to convince these parents that they should take the most minimal interest in their child's education.
It's not the school system that's failing, it's parents like these who fail in their responsibility to instill a desire to learn in their children.
SOP,
Your statement goes for both sides, how many times have OTBL'ers manipulated statistics, as a matter of fact this is all Bill Danielson does, he relies on complete conservative think or should I say non think tanks to spew out any statistic that would make public schools look like a failure.
I'm sure BD/Spirit are both dredging these cesspools of the wingnut intelligencia to find some gem to quote right now.
Once again those who got past High School across the border use linquistic manipulation to frame the argument to embassass their opponents. Just like "Government Schools" Apologists is used to demean and discredit OTBL opponents before they utter a word by implying
that if you support public education
you're a "whitwasher" like those who deny the holocost.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Apologetics is the field of study concerned with the systematic defense of a position. Someone who engages in apologetics is called an apologist or an "apologete". The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning defense of a position against an attack. When John Henry Newman entitled his spiritual autobiography Apologia Pro Vita Sua in 1864, he was playing upon both connotations. Early uses of the term include Plato's Apology (the defense speech of Socrates from his trial) and some works of early Christian apologists, such as St. Justin Martyr's two Apologies addressed to the emperor Marcus Aurelius.
Colloquial usage
Today the term "apologist" is colloquially applied to groups and individuals systematically promoting causes, justifying orthodoxies or denying certain events, even of crimes. Apologists are often characterized as being deceptive, or "whitewashing" their cause, primarily through omission of negative facts (selective perception) and exaggeration of positive ones, techniques of classical rhetoric. When used in this context, the term often has a pejorative meaning. The neutralized substitution of "spokesperson" for "apologist" in conversation conveys much the same sense of "partisan presenter with a weighted agenda," with less rhetorical freight.
"By denying parents the right to a competitive product, the government system of schools continues to provide low-performing, unsafe, and inefficient schools."
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The above quote from the OTBL letter concerns me. Why are our government schools so low-performing? Why can't we improve the quality of government school education?
Do you people over on this sido of the border have any statistics that show different?
If you are interested in an excellent source for statistics of all shapes and form, check out:
www.nationmaster.com
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If you recall the ABC 20/20 report by John Stossel a month or so ago, Denmark was an example used to compare the US schools to. Of course, the OTBL'ers won't be moving to Denmanrk soon. By far, the major educator is the government. A country with such a wide openness to religious and lifestyle differences wouldn't be very appealing to the narrowness of the OTBL perspective.
A dropout from Hudson High School sent me the NationMaster link.
Welcome back CW.
My first point would be this:
I thought I gave you pretty solid justification and historical
precedence as reasons to refer to public schools as public schools. I must say you are
a tenacious fellow. If you want to continue refer to public schools as government schools as
a small minority does in this country does, I guess that is certainly your perogative.
For myself, I'll continue the 150 year tradition of calling them public.
At the moment I do not have the statistics that you are requesting.
This is a valid point. I'm supposing that you have stats that prove the opposite?
When people do provide stats from DPI, your side always dismisses them.
Keep in mind that for the most part,
I'm referring to the Hudson School District not all public schools.
As I stated above, my experience with the Hudson School District has been
by and large a positive one. As a parent has you're experience been that terrible?
I'm pretty certain that you don't share my opinion that education should not be considered a "product" but an experience.
I don't believe students should be consider products either, like turning them out from some educational assembly line. It think this mindset is particularly
dehumanizing.
Here's a point for you to ponder. Look at what has happened to network TV
News. It is now a commercial product. Commercial pressure placed on reporters today
dictates that the "news" appeal to the broadest possible audience. The news we "consume" is that which people want to hear and what sells products. It is
not an objective report of current events. We have news about Ben and Jen, and
Dancing with the Stars. I've even seen Survivor as the top news story.
This is absolutely ludicrous and is the direct result of the commercialization
of news. Compare this to the BBC, which is government funded.
This is extremely ironic that you'd receive more informed news from the government funded source than the commercial source. Even I would expect the opposite. I believe it's because there are safeguards in place the
prevent government funded news from becoming government propaganda. The same is true of NPR and PBS in this country.
My fear is education will not improve but slip into a similar situation as network
news. Look at the "intitutes" that constantly advertise about getting your 4 year
degree in 1 year, 1 night a week. Do you really believe that these "intitutes" provided
the same quality education as a St. Thomas Univ. or the U of M. or one of it's smaller State
campuses? I'm no expert, but I remember hearing of all kinds of corruption in the various
charter high schools in MN. just a few years ago. Now they are creating charter schools
for acting, record production etc.In my opinion, that's not providing the basics for life
in this century to adolecents. If they want to persue careers in these fields, there
are plenty of opportunities after High School.
These are the reasons I oppose the type of privitization that you promote.
Please don't reply by calling me a Socialist or a Communist. I am neither.
The Anti Bill Danielson:
I agree with 99.9% of what you just said. Since CW has ventured off his plantation to join us here in debate, I think it would be fitting to treat him with respect and to refrain from the name calling (i.e. Kilnut). Even though that doesn't refer to CW. I'm sure there will be other times,places and opportunities to practice our satire. For now why not engage in an honest dialogue.
Andy:
History! You're not really basing your side of the debate on history are you? We had legal slavery in this country for 200 years? There were people speaking out against that institution the entire time. The Quakers were against. New Englanders like John Adams were against? George Washington wrestled with the issue and ended up freeing his slaves upon his death. Women weren't allowed to vote for the first 120 years of our republic. A long history of something doesn't make it right. History, tradition and ignorance of the facts are the shepherds that lead sheep like you to the slaughterhouse of the status quo.
You don't have any facts? Come on, what position have you been arguing from? Emotion! 150 years of tradition! Do some homework, gather some facts and quit trying to feed us your public school, apple pie in the sky.
Concerning degrees, what do base the quality of a degree on? Tradition? Maybe a person can earn a college degree on the internet in a year. This would be bad for both public and private institutions of higher learning, if they don't change. If an employer accepts your degree on your resume, what concern is it to you? How many people have you hired lately?
Sure there's been a few charter schools that run into trouble. There are public schools that have run into trouble. Acting, recording, whatever, these are more specialized schools. Smaller too and more focused on the technical high schools you see in socialist countries of Europe. You want the one size fits all approach don't you.
CW says: "How can you equate requests for information from the school district as petty? I don't see it that way. I am a taxpaying member of the school district and it is within my rights as a citizen to request this information."
I have a question for CW. The public sector is not the only one subject to auditing. I understand that you are a small business owner. How would you like it if the IRS and the WI State Dept. of Revenue came in to audit your books every few weeks? Also, many small business owners sign service agreements, partnership agreements, financing agreements, that allow the other party to audit. What if (in between IRS audits) you were audited by your partners, vendors, banks, etc. on a weekly basis? What if in between these daily audits, your auditors wrote letters in the local paper referring to you and your business as corrupt and mismanaged? Let me tell you what I think. I believe you would, at some point, tell them to get out of your face, take a hike, and let you get on with your work. Hey, but let's say they won't take a hike. In fact, they just point to the law and the contracts and say: "Sorry, but we have the right to audit you, and we have an obligation to the taxpayers and our shareholders to do so. P.S. Here' our latest round of requests for information." Do you think your "citizen auditing" of the school district is any less harrassing? Since you haven't uncovered some insidious fraud by now, don't you think its time to let the board and administration get on with their work? Sure, ask a question now and then, when you really have an important question. But demanding information nonstop is just a worthless waste of time.
"The likes of Bill Danielson and other borderliners believe that students are a product and therefore should be treated as such. They believe all students learn the same, therefore all as GW's would say should be proficient in all areas by 2014 for NCLB."
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Despite want you say, Dr. Danielson is the dance instructor on the other side of the borderline. He has his opinions, just like everybody else. So please don't confuse me with him.
Speaking for myself, we are working for the opposite of what you charge us with above. We are in favor of the individual development of students. Why else would we discuss issues like homeschooling or charter schools? Surely you have to admit that our government schools of today have turned into giant factories pumping out inferiors products put together by union members. You see the same thing in the American auto industry with Ford and GM. The union doesn't want to give up its stranglehold on the public purse strings. In the auto industry, it's the corporate purse strings and we can see where they are heading.
We don't want mass produced Heathers and Trevors who have had their heads injected with a bunch of liberal, socialist notions. We don't want out kids be forced to read books about functional families populated by gays, drinks and divorce. If we want our children to learn about sex education, we've teach them. Is nothing scared? Don't we have a right to raise and educate our children in the environment we see fit.
You are the true kool aid drinkers over here. Why change beverages, when we had the same flavor for the past 150 years? Well, we don't like the flavor of the sludge the government is trying to force-feed us, especially when we are picking up the tab.
What don't you understand about this position? We are pretty clear on it. We know you don't agree with it, but this is America land of the free. We want the freedom to educate our kids they we see fit and not be the guinea pigs in some liberal, social science experiment.
CW said: "Surely you have to admit that our government schools of today have turned into giant factories pumping out inferiors products put together by union members. You see the same thing in the American auto industry with Ford and GM. The union doesn't want to give up its stranglehold on the public purse strings. In the auto industry, it's the corporate purse strings and we can see where they are heading."
Actually CW NO, I don't concur with your evaluation of public schools.
You seem to have a real distain for unions and a coresponding lack of
concern that family incomes are shrinking.
I guess that you would prefer to live in a country where there are no
worker benefits. No pensions, no workmen's compensation, no unemployment
insurance.Just like the 1890's before the labor movement made gains for
workers in this country. Yes that was utopian error.(not) If you had a disabled
child too bad, it's God's will, or became disabled youself, you could rot
and die, or go begging on the streets. It was a grand old time when
banks could forclose on homes at will. Six day 12 hour day work weeks in the mills.
Yes, Yes, let's bring those days back. It's the ownership (on your own )
society.No thanks CW. I'll take the few negatives unions may have
brought to society as opposed to returning to those "good ole' days".
The US auto makers are heading south because they have had zero innovation.
My family had Buick's as I was growing up. To my amazement when I rode
in a friends Buick, they have the exact same door handles as they did
in 1963. That's just one example.
"We don't want mass produced Heathers and Trevors who have had their heads injected with a bunch of liberal, socialist notions. We don't want out kids be forced to read books about functional families populated by gays, drinks and divorce. If we want our children to learn about sex education, we've teach them. Is nothing scared? Don't we have a right to raise and educate our children in the environment we see fit."
I teach my younins' to think for themselves. I'm confident that I've laid a strong
enough moral background that they can be exposed to ideas I don't agree with without going astray.
You know darn well there are 2 tracks for health ed. at the high school, so that
parents who object to their kids being exposed to values they don't agree with can
opt out. I considered that myself but decided it's time to find out about the real
world. I'd be happy if in the real world had every kid had a Mom and Dad that loved them
and took responsible care of them. But that's not real is it?
"Why change beverages, when we had the same flavor for the past 150 years? Well, we don't like the flavor of the sludge the government is trying to force-feed us, especially when we are picking up the tab."
If you mean that education is funded by taxes, I guess that flavor tastes just fine.
But I have this nagging feeling you're trying to twist my words. I proved to you
that the term public education was in use for 150 years. Don't try to paint me as some
fool who thinks nothing's changed in that time period. And don't forget, me and
thousands of others that don't share your views are part
of your "we" that pays the tab.
Got to get some sleep. I got a job to go to tommorrow.
Your new pen pal Andy.
RandyAndy:
The unions obviously have done a lot for the teachers, but what have they done for the students, parents and taxpayers. Are students better prepared for the workforce or college now than they were 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago? You have high school graduates that can't give you change for a dollar bill without taking their socks off and using their toes. For crying out loud, I doesn't get any simpler than change for a dollar. They can't do simple math, yet they want all high school graduates to be do algebra. How often do you use algebra? I had it in high school and
Who are you trying to protect here? You don't have to stick up for a system that is sticking up the taxpayers. If you have kids in the local school system, do you think they are getting a quality education that reflects the price we taxpayers are being charged?
CW
You do the math. Lets see, when I graduated from HHS in 1973 we weren't allowed to use calculators on chemistry tests. A simple function calculator cost around $100 for a cheap one. It today's dollars that's way more than an entry level Dell computer.
Add up the computers in the school and the related infrastructure and you have a sizeable dollar investment that didn't exist before. Would you want you kids graduating in today's world with chalk-n-slate skills? In the business world, entry level factory workers will be touching computers.
Likewise, how engaged do you think students living in the highly computerized, gadget-driven, Game Boy world of today are going to find a chalk-n-slate educational environment. In case you haven't noticed, the world of technology changes rapidly and, if you did an audit of your local school district, you'd find that schools are not ahead of the curve. There's a definate gap between where schools are and where they need to be. It would be an exceptional private school that would be able to provide students with technology platforms that can surf ahead of the curve or at least on the cusp.
CW, you said....
"You have high school graduates that can't give you change for a dollar bill without taking their socks off and using their toes. For crying out loud, I doesn't get any simpler than change for a dollar. They can't do simple math, yet they want all high school graduates to be do algebra. How often do you use algebra? I had it in high school and"....
you didn't finish the sentence here so I'm not sure what else you meant. Understandable when posting quickly to a blog.
I've become baffled by how you critics of the schools talk out of both sides of your mouths.
On the one hand you complain that the minimum requirements to graduate from High School aren't high enough to to qualify for entry into the UW-System campuses. Then you want to drop algebra??? Which is it?
From what you said above, it sounds
like you'd like to have kids drop out after the 8th grade a work at McDonald's making change. (They can't make change because the rely on the cash register to tell them what to do ). Is that prepared for
jobs in this century? Making change
with 4th grade math?
If you'd think about it, it doesn't make sense to set the minimum for graduation to the same level as UW college entrance. Remember, we're talking minimum to graduate High School. If all a student can do is reach the minimum, they obviously are not college material.
Some kids just don't have the academic skills to go on to college.
That doesn't necessarily mean they will be failures in life. They may have vocational skills that the college bound kids don't. So the standard to leave high school shouldn't be the same as to enter college.
Then on the other side you say. You never use algebra. Are you suggesting that high schools drop algebra? Well, neither you , nor I are engineers so no I don't use algebra often. But I'm willing to bet that Mr. Baker who I'm pretty sure has an engineering degree absolutely needed algebra and calculus in his field. He often talks about the dumbing down of high school students and how we need more math and science so we can produce more scientists and engineers, and then you complain that they shouldn't learn algebra. Can't you see the contradiction?
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