8/15/2006

OTBL Celebrates Discrimination














It should come as no surprise to us that our favorite masked friends are celebrating our thumbs up to racial, religious, or ethnic profiling but nonetheless I was sick to my stomach this morning to see this post.

Like I posted on OTBL (We'll see if they approve it).... I am more scared of what's brooding in Heartland America than I am of your average Muslim...

EDIT: My mistake, this isn't in The US. (Thank you Cato for pointing that out) Regardless of where this is happening, the fact that its being celebrated is wrong.... The fact that my siblings are growing up in a town with people that celebrate this kind of thing scares the hell out of me.

48 comments:

Cato said...

I wasn't aware ATBL1.blogspot.com was based in Great Britian.

Josh said...

ahh... my mistake. Regardless of where it is... It's wrong.

Cato said...

Well I think you should read the article before getting sick to your stomach about "reading it."

England has some very strict terror laws, laws that make the PATRIOT Act's provisions look laughable. Brits can suspend habeaus corpus even on citizens if "terrorism" is involved. They are not screwing around over there. That is what happens when you mix legislative, judicial and executive. The Parliment IS the government. They control everything.

That all said, as I mentioned in a post below, there is a need to be smart about all of this. First of all, end government involvement in airport security. Secondly, be smart in who you check. An 80 year old is not going to blow up anything aside from her colostomy bag.

Josh said...

So why let them fly? Hell why don't we just put them all in camps?

Do you understand how ridiculous your argument about the 80 year old is here? Take two middle aged men, the same height, weight, occupation, family situation, etc... and send them both through the airport and the Muslim one gets discriminated against beacuse of your prejudice... ugh

Cato said...

How many middle aged Christians, atheists, Jews, Buddists, Mormons, Hindus, Daoists, or Jedi have been hijacking airplanes?

Life-loving Muslims, who I hope is a mjaority of them, would support higher scruitiny on the one type of people who have been trying to blow up commercial airlines. They want to live don't they? I think it is rather ridiculous to be anally searching old grandmas just so it doesn't look like we're looking at the one type of people that actually have done the thing we are attempting to prevent.

Josh said...

Strawman! Get off it already, anally searching old woman?

This is institutional racism, nothing more, nothing less. The fact remains that ANYONE (yes even Grandma) still has the CAPACITY to attempt such a feat, to formally target one ethnic, religious, or racial group is nothing short of bigotry.

Once government leadership formally declares one group of people more dangerous than another we head down the very same road we did with the Japanese and the internment camps...

Cato said...

I don't see how private secuirity firms searching people who are willingly paying money to board private aircraft is anything like internment camps. You don't have to use the private airplane. No one is forcing you to use the private airplane companies for travel.

Josh said...

First of all, the government isn't going to quit regulating air travel.. so yes it would be the government.

Second, regardless of who is running security, I'm not just an advocate of non discrimination by the government... it is morally wrong to assume one as being more dangerous simply because of your place of birth, skin color, religion, etc...

Thirdly, the argument that those who need to travel by air should willingly opening themselves up to such hatred is really sad... maybe those who can afford a house in a nice culdasac should open themselves up to profiling by their neighbors too..?

Cato said...

First of all, the government isn't going to quit regulating air travel.. so yes it would be the government.

Why not? THAT is more freigtening than anything we are talking about. Do you not agree?

Second, regardless of who is running security, I'm not just an advocate of non discrimination by the government... it is morally wrong to assume one as being more dangerous simply because of your place of birth, skin color, religion, etc...

Religion is a choice. And, statistically speaking, Jedi aren't taking over planes and killing thousands of people. Neither are Christians. Or atheists. Or Democats. Or Republicans. Or Jews. Or Buddists.... ...Or squirrel-owners. Or Mexicans. Or Musl... oh wait, they are.

Thirdly, the argument that those who need to travel by air should willingly opening themselves up to such hatred is really sad... maybe those who can afford a house in a nice culdasac should open themselves up to profiling by their neighbors too..?

Well I am a fan of private property rights and a fan of allowing people to discriminate as they please. I never said all airlines "had to" or even "should." But would I perfer an airline that looked at people who were statistically more likely to be trying to kill everyone on the plane? Yes, yes I would.

AndyRand said...

CATO:
It seems no matter what the issue, for you the government is always to blame.

Josh: The reality is Racial profiling has never stopped. They only search the least likely so that they can search more of the most likely and the stats even out. I know of a wheel bound woman in her 50's being told to stand up and get out of her chair so they could search it more thouroughly.
How stupid. The woman can not walk that's why she's in a wheelchair.

You should also read Jill Carroll's account of her kidnapping in Iraq.

The Jihadists, after shooting killing and celebrating the Jihad decided that they'd take her home to meet the family.

Here are a few excerpts of from her account. I don't think you'd categorize her as a racist or bigot.


"One of the guys had a suicide vest on that he had made himself. It was a vest full of like, TNT and dynamite. He said, 'Come look at my vest,'" she said.

Throughout the experience, Carroll also noticed a few small children in the houses, including a 5-year-old, whose parents helped capture and guard Carroll.

"He was really cute," she said, talking about the 5-year-old. And he wants to be a holy warrior," she said. "It was this entire family unit. … If you're going to combat insurgency, you have to kill the entire family or something. Or imprison the entire family. That 5-year-old boy is going to grow up and pick up a gun one day and start shooting. Obviously, he's being trained for that."

One night in the kitchen, one of the men explained proudly that his wife wanted to be a suicide bomber; she blushed from his praises.

"And she had three little kids sitting there playing … and they're making dinner and she's four months pregnant. I was stunned, I didn't know what to say," Carroll said.

Josh said...

-I agree on government involvement in air travel.. but that comes more from a fiscal standpoint. Regardless of who is regulating it I expect non-discrimination.

-Yes religion is a choice. That doesn't make it ok to hate, it only serves to perpetuate the circle of hatred. And last I checked statistics were not a morally appropriate way of determining what is right or wrong. Furthermore, I don't recall a statistical equation for barring rights anywhere in the Constitution.

"Well I am a fan of... allowing people to discriminate as they please.

-Regardless of whether its private property or mass transportation, I am NOT a fan of such discrimination. Don't you see the circle here? Many Muslim extremists have a hatred for this country, yes. And it is largely because of exactly that type of mentality. The solution for fixing that lies in understanding where they are coming from and doing what we can to break down those barriers.

And I still can't get over the logical inadequacies of making the statistics argument. Regardless of the numbers it doesn't change the capacity of ANY individual to attempt the same thing. Why displace resources based on ignorance, bigotry, hatred, etc, and risk Ted K. from blowing us up while we fly to see Aunt Barb in Omaha?

Josh said...

Andy,

That just furthers my argument for making these connections. AND it leads me down a whole different tangent regarding US involvement in foreign affairs...

Josh said...

I take that back. I just remembered there WAS a statistical equation for barring rights in the Constitution. 3/5 mean anything to anyone?

Cato said...

A Constitutional argument cannot be made if government is not invovled in the private sphere.

Most every Muslim who hates this country started off with an irrational hatred that was then compounded by percieved anti-Muslim actions by the government of this country. While I would like to say "oh they are smart enough to know that private airlines are not run by the government," unfountertly, the Danish cartoon "controversy" where Muslims declared that the Danish Government was behind all of it and boycotted Danish goods... well I guess I cannot say that with a straight face. But their ignorance is no excuse really.

Ted K. may drunkenly stumble into the cockpit and crash the plane into the water, but I doubt he will blow it up. I didn't say to not check him too. It's not like non-Muslims don't have to go through the scanner. It's not like we can carry knives on the plane. But be smart on who you check a little bit more. There are so many people i nthe airport and people don't want to wait. Who to check? Pick the usual suspects.

Cato said...

I take that back. I just remembered there WAS a statistical equation for barring rights in the Constitution. 3/5 mean anything to anyone?

By treating slaves as 3/5ths of a person, this kept the South from having an outrageous majority in the House. Slaves would have wanted to be counted as a zero of a person. Not only is this entire thing irrelevant, I really don't see what your point here actually is.

AndyRand said...

CATO:
Ignorance is abundant both here and in the Muslim world.

Jill Carroll's abductors could not understand why she didn not have blond hair and blues eyes since she was an American.

Also, An informal ABC quiz ( not that this is even remotely accurate because I think it was done for entertainment purposes ) Howevever,
I believe only 20% could name 2 Supreme Court justices and 30% knew
that Tony Blair was the U.K. Prime Minister. Before you blame it on the
goverment schools, these were adults.
It's appalling how ill informed the public at large is and the Coporate Media Giants are largely at fault for creating news as an entertainment commodity to increase their bottom line.

Josh said...

The 3/5ths mention was a jab at the statistics mention.. anyway...


"A Constitutional argument cannot be made if government is not invovled in the private sphere."

AGAIN, you're assuming the government is going to magically drop regulation.

"But their ignorance is no excuse really."

Neither is yours.

Cato said...

Pray tell, am I ignorant to a rash of Jedi plane hijackings?

As for the Constitutional argument, the Federal government actually CAN discriminate on the basis of race. The states cannot discriminate on the basis of race. The Federal government can stipulate that X amount of projects have to goto "minority owned buisnesses" but the state of Virginia cannot. Check out the difference in wording between Amendments 14 and 19. 19 stipulates the United States cannot discriminate on the basis of sex, nor can any State. The 14th stipulates only States. So there is still an argument that can be had over whether or not it is legal.

Josh said...

I'd love to see that argument hit our courts..

Cato I'm curious - What do you do? I know you're on here anonymous and all... but if you'll answer what is it that you do you do for a living, did you grow up here, do you have kids?

I'm not asking in a condescending way.. I'm truly curious..

Cato said...

Andy I do understand that there are more than a few rubes in this country. I do not think this lack of caring is so much caused by just government schools but by government, period. Things are taken care of: don't worry about it just turn the other way. Many people would rather be lazy and have someone else do things for you. And so they sacrifice freedom for security. As more an more is picked up by government there isn't much left to worry about, other than who is this week's American Idol or whatever. Apathy has sticken the land, this much is true.

Josh said...

"And so they sacrifice freedom for security. As more an more is picked up by government there isn't much left to worry about, other than who is this week's American Idol or whatever. Apathy has sticken the land, this much is true."

Amen. I could not agree more.

AndyRand said...

Josh,

I'd like to be able to agree with this:

"The solution for fixing that lies in understanding where they are coming from and doing what we can to break down those barriers."


But I can't entirely..

How do you understand where a pregnant mother of three announcing that she wants to become a suicide bomber is coming from?
This type of religious fanatism is growing not deminishing.

This is beyond my comprehension.

I'm sorry to dwell on this Jill Carroll abduction but you have to watch this video of her descibing her abduction.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0814/p13s01a-woiq.html
or Tiny
http://tinyurl.com/mwwa3

"Jihad! Jihad! Jihad!" my abductors shouted, excited and joyful. "Jihad! Jihad!"
These people are F*ing nuts.

Cato said...

City of Richmond v. J.A. Croson Co and Fullilove v. Klutznick. Now things have changed a bit, but there are some arguments for you.

Cato said...

Yes andy there is not even civility in debate with some people. I do not know what to do about the entire issue, but I'm a fan of live and let die. Most people, hoever, feel the United State's government needs to take an active role in world affairs.

Josh said...

"These people are f'ing nuts"

My point Andy is that that line of thinking doesn't even make an attempt. How can we sit here in our country on our side of the world and say they are ignorant and crazy without doing EVERYTHING we can to help them see otherwise.

Furthermore I want to ask you, Why do you think they hate us so? Yes, many of them are learning it from birth it has been going on so long now, but that doesn't mean it can't end.

People in this country grew up believing other people were inferior them and believing that it was OK to enslave them and beat them... Eventually, however, we have been able to overturn that mass thought...

"These ppl are f'ing nuts" is a prime example of that apathy we were just speaking of..

AndyRand said...

CATO said:

"As more an more is picked up by government there isn't much left to worry about, other than who is this week's American Idol or whatever. Apathy has sticken the land, this much is true."

I have to disagree. I'm no spring chicken and I see less and less picked by the govt. not more and more. In the 70's anybody with the slightest aptitude could afford to go to college without accumulating a lifetime of debt.Today, you once again have to be wealthy to attend college or mortgage your entire future for it, and that's no guarentee of an upper middle class standard of living.

For any thinking person, there is more and more to worry about.
Avoiding unmanagable debt., insuring
your property from disaster. Avoiding financial ruin if you become disabled. Rising crime.. Elaborate scams everywhere you turn etc. etc.

I believe the apathy comes from the constant barrage of diversions placed before people who are in denial of the real dangers of modern day living or are simply overwelmed by the number of them. So they "tune out" to American Idol, Survivor, The Fox "News" channel, talkshow radio etc. ( I admittedly listed my favorite scapegoats here, All TV news is guilty )It's like they live in a big dream world while real problems continue to mount that they take no part in trying to alliviate.

AndyRand said...

JOSH,
"These people are f'ing nuts"

Generally, I am not of this opinion.
It's not an opinion that I desire to
hold.
But after hearing the account of someone who has been in their world and I'm assuming was generally sympathetic to their plight (Jill Carroll) Who took the time to learn their language etc. And others who traveled to Iraq with a sincere desire to help these people and are then murdered for the Jihad,
I can come to no other conclusion than.
"These people are f'ing nuts"

I agree that they current policies of the U.S. only make the situation worse, not better. It is a very disturbing picture, I see there with no practical or realistic solution in sight.

Josh said...

My point of reference is certainly not as long as Andy's (judging by the spring chicken comment- hehe) but I still agree with Cato in regards to apathy being a problem.

Andy.. an increased set of circumstances and responsibilities, to me anyway, puts me on my toes even more. I find it very frustrating that a majority of this country sits back and relies on others to take care of everything.

Josh said...

What's even more infuriating is my generation. The twenty something’s of the 70's were LIGHT YEARS ahead of us in terms of world and national awareness

AndyRand said...

CATO:
you said:
"Yes andy there is not even civility in debate with some people."
Am I correct in assuming you're pointing that finger at me? I do get passionate on occation I know.

Cato said...

Andy, no no I was not. I was talking about the same people who you call "fucking nuts."

AndyRand said...

Josh:

"Andy.. an increased set of circumstances and responsibilities, to me anyway, puts me on my toes even more. I find it very frustrating that a majority of this country sits back and relies on others to take care of everything."

You obviously haven't been in a circumstance where these "responsibilities" become humanly unmanagable. That doen't put you on your toes, it puts you in the grave.
I don't care how ruggedly individualistic you are, at some point you people need a hand up, not bootstrap lecture.

There are thousands of people in these situations and they are by and large swept under the rug while we all text in our vote for the next Idol. I too agree with CATO. Apathy abounds...

AndyRand said...

CATO:

"I was talking about the same people who you call "fucking nuts.""

Do you disagree with that assessment?

Generally, I try to see other perspectives. In some instances I find it impossible.

Josh said...

Andy I caution you to assume you know me or my (or anyone else for that matter) set of circumstances...

Regardless, I think we agree on the overwhelming apathy of those who are NOT in such circumstances.. (the Idol Voters- as we've succomb to calling them)

AndyRand said...

I think we may also agree the "Idol voters" have become the majority. Ignorance IS bliss.

Josh said...

"Ignorance IS bliss"

...to a certain point of course..

AndyRand said...

CATO & Josh,
I was incorrect on some factors about a poll I alluded to earlier.
Check out this video.
http://tinyurl.com/pv74x

I think both you guys will laugh your butts off, or maybe not. It's a sad commentary on American Culture.
What I find disturbing is that the commentators find this stupidity "refreshing". How can anyone not think they are intentionally promoting ignorance.
I swear I did not see this video until 5 min. ago. and it hits many of the points we discussed here.
CATO: I'm eagerly awaiting for you to find a way to blame the government for this one.
To me it reinforces my opinion that Corporate Media is intentionally trying to make people ignorant and then celebrating their success.

"Jihad! Jihad! Jihad!"

Cato said...

IE?! You're killing me Smalls.

That is about the most depressing thing I have seen all year.

Zogby: What if everyone showed up to the [town hall and school board] meetings and knew everything? God help us all. It's refreshing that people have other priorites [than politics] in their lives I guess.

I'm twitching. I need to go.

AndyRand said...

CATO said:

"IE?! You're killing me Smalls."

Sorry, I need an interpreter for this?

As far as everyone showing up to the town hall meeting knowing everything.

I think we might actually agree here, that Zogby comment's is about the stupidist thing I've
ever heard. What would we have if people did came armed with knowledge? Democracy? What an idiot!
And then they call it "refreshing" that people are ignoramuses.

I can't help but think there's an agenda behind this little "study". It's popped up in national media at least twice today. I don't think it's so attention grabbing that it has a life of it's own. What do you think CATO?

Cato said...

Internet Explorer was needed to view it (IE?!) and the expression "you're killing me Smalls" comes from the movie The Sandlot.

You're killing me Smalls...

I don't know if there is an "agenda" behind it anymore than there is an "agenda" behind most news items (as in the people who write the news have their own opinions... I'm sorry did I say "write"? I meant "report with journalistic flair"...).

Cato said...

BTW, the interviewer on MSNBC did not seem to know the three branches of government herself and seemed to think that Superman's home planet was his "weakness".

Terrible.

Cato said...

Ham: Hey, Smalls, you wanna s'more?

Smalls: I haven't had anything.

Ham: No, do you wanna s'more?

Smalls: How can I have some more of nothing?

Ham Porter: You're killing me, Smalls! This is smores stuff. First you take the graham. You stick the chocolate on the graham. Then, you roast the mallow. When the mallows flaming, you stick it on the chocolate and cover it with the other end. Then, you scarf.

AndyRand said...

CATO:
I hate IE too. Sorry you needed it to see the video.

I'm not really connecting to the sandlot dialogue. But I know how that goes. Some comedy bits just stick with you and you think there funny even when others aren't really sure what you're talking about. It's one of those "Guess you had to be there" things. I vaguely remember seeing the movie. I recall liking it. Isn't it sort of a Disney type, remember you boyhood movie?

Anyway. We agree, the video and the study are pitiful on multiple levels.
I'm going to try to explain my take on this, if for no other reason than in hopes that you may see where I'm coming from.

From what I remember in the 80's, news, healthcare and an number of other industries started changing. From my perspective this was because of the political climate created by Ronald Reagan and the Repbulicans.
I remember when Dan Rather was a real journalist, and so were a number of other good reporters. As a matter of fact Rather fought tooth and nail to stem the tide of news departments starting to be run by bean counters instead of journalists. As far as I'm concerned that was the begining of the end of the profession of journalism. Why?
Profit. News was never a commodity back then, it was news. I even think that journalists made an honest effort to be objective back then, dispite their biases leaking through. Look at the crap we have for TV "news" today. This video is a prime example.
I'm guessing that from your perspective the decline in objective
reporting and the profession of journalism has something to do with the government wrecking it.
I'd like to read your take on it?

Cato said...

I don't think there ever was anything close to "objective news reporting" in this country. Americans have always liked tabloids.

AndyRand said...

Sorry, You are wrong.
Watch PBS Frontline, or the old CBS whitepapers. Reporters like Walter Cronkite, Harry Reasoner, Chet Huntley
David Brinkley and Edward R. Murrow were not "yellow journalists" This was not tabloid journalism, That was REAL journalism.

AndyRand said...

Sorry to be so emphatic.

Josh said...

Andyi LOVE PBS Frontline! I even have a link to it on my blog! fun fun

AndyRand said...

Josh,

You're right. Frontline actually does about the best job possible of covering an issue fairly and objectively. I saw the link on you blog too. Nice job BTW.

http://www.onthebottomline.blogspot.com/