Libertarian Lesson One (Reprise)
A couple other favorite "Libertarian" thoughts:
" Of course libertarianism is compatible with Christianity! Just substitute "the market" for "Jesus", and ask "What would the market do?""
"Public schools are a monopoly: a staggering 80% of American children attend them in thousands of independently run school districts. Microsoft is not a monopoly: only 95% of computers use MSWindows."
" DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT the fact that the Internet came from a government project."
Lesson Two in a One Part Series:
67 comments:
You seem to like lesson 2 better than lesson one!
CATO said:"I have a linux machine and I know many people who do. I can't stand Macintosh though. After Windows Vista comes out, with it's video card requirements for 3-D rendered icons on the desktop I think people will leave Microsoft. I know I won't be upgrading. But that's neither here nor there..."
Yes, 2gigs of memory to run an operating system is a bit extreme. So what choice do you have? You have Linux, you must have lots of time to baby sit it. Do you write your own device drivers? Until recently I've been an avid Anti-Mac fan! A friend of mine likens them to having a car with the hood welded shut.
I'll be watching for CATO DOS!
CATO said:
"Mozilla Firefox is where it is at."
Finally something we agree on!!!!!!!
To bad you were being factitious:-(
Even the largest philanthropist on the planet(Bill Gates ) states on his foundation website:
http://tinylink.com/?uBOrujBVir
"Philanthropy plays an important but limited role."
and
http://tinylink.com/?z2ykIkuVTH
But even if the foundation funds crucial breakthroughs, we do not have the resources to reach everyone in need. We count on businesses, governments, nonprofit organizations, and volunteers to expand and sustain our grantees' work.
Reality has a nasty way of interfering with your "principals".
A very small sample of some of the cooperative endevours with GOVERNMENT.
Community Grants - Grant
September 7, 2004
Washington State Bar Foundation
Seattle, WA
$20,800 over 45 months to support an online law and government education project
WASHINGTON and SEATTLE -- The Summit Foundation and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation have each awarded the Royal Government of Bhutan a $1 million grant for its Bhutan Health Trust Fund.
Emergency Relief - Grant
November 24, 2003
Georgetown University
Washington, DC
$291,164 over 21 months to hold regional workshops that will bring together NGOs, academic institutions, and government officials from developing countries to plan for ways to improve their capacity to respond effectively to disasters
Goodwill Industries of the Columbia Willamette Announce $5,000 Gift from Bill and Melinda Gates
PORTLAND, Or. -- Goodwill Industries of the Columbia Willamette (GICW) today announced a $5,000 gift from Bill and Melinda Gates to provide scholarships for students with disabilities and special needs who do not qualify for government-funded rehabilitation programs.
New Plan To Speed AIDS Vaccine Development Released
GENEVA -- The International AIDS Vaccine Initiative (IAVI) unveiled a new global scientific strategy to accelerate AIDS vaccine development, and said it will begin work on the plan with existing resources and newly announced grants from the William H. Gates Foundation, the World Bank and the Government of the United Kingdom.
But I forgot these are not your problems.
CATO:
Tangent or not,I agree. I also dig
the RSS (livebook marks ).
My Amiga OS
could fit on a couple floppies, maybe
even one, I don't recall exactly.
I'm sure you've heard the saying "What
Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away"
Sure sounds like it will fit with Vista. Another fine example of "market manipulation via creation of artificial needs". So like it or not
you're likely to eventurally be running Vista on a machine with 4 gig or Ram
half of which is pretty much wasted.
Doesn't that piss you off? I've tried resisting these trends. It's pretty much futile.
Windows Media 10!!!! Talk about privacy issues. It's my understanding
that this player tracks everything you play and reports back to MS. It's not the government who's Big Brother. (Well maybe? ) But corporate america certainly is. I tried to keep media player 7 as long as I could. Eventually it becomes unfeasible. They they got you. And that again is not the government. And what about Google?
I try to you Clusty whenever possible.
Actually you can be forced to you Media Player10 in a way. D/L some songs from Napster. You own them right. You can only transfer them to CD or devices or play them with Napster software which now requires Media Player 10. My point is we are being manipulated into things like WMP10 whether we won't to or not.
Forced? Pretty damn close. If I want to utilized files I own Yes I'm being forced.
I suppose you read and understand every EULA? I think most people just click "I agree" and have no idea what they've agreed to. In my book that's coersion. There no negotiating is there?
I know pretty much every trick in the book and I couldn't get around Napster.
I was uninstalling and reinstalling different versions of their software just to burn CD's of song I purchased. It was a pain in the ass.
What's your beef with Ipod other than it's an apple product? I dumped Napster and I'm pretty happy with I pod. The only thing I don't like is their AAC format. It's just their version of wma.
I'm not a big song buyer. I have tons of LP's and CD's I can put into I-Tunes. What I use it for most is podcasts. The load time you're correct
Slooooooow. Not backing up? what if your HD crashes?
We have to stop this congeniality, it will ruin both our reputations:-)
Speaking of songs. I found some lyrics on the "lesson" website you might find
humorous. I do.
The Cyber-Netizen's Song
http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00310.html
Well CATO:
I thought you'd like the song. You didn't take it as a slam at you did you? I see it as a spoof on blogging in general.
Hey, don't you guys know that vinyl is making a come back? You can trade in $800 worth of LPs over at Root Seller Records on Snelling and get $5 back. It's amazing! After I found this great deal out, I went home and got the rest of my records, traded them in, bought a joint in Frog Town, a six pack on the Wisconsin side of the river and did what I had to do...
Sounds like a great Hippy type wealth building opportunity Ziggy.
cato;
Back to your first comments; if you've studied Jesus form both an archeological, and historical perspective, you would know that he did exist. Infact all prophecies from hundreds of years prior to his birth were met (birth, death, and resurection). I don't agree with your opinion about Jesus, and necessairly any one political party being in any way part of his message. I would guess that he would say that he is more concerned about our faith and living life as he taught. Money, in his opinion was earthly, and not Heavenly.
Having said that, and a from little more earthly perspective; most cultures over time are politically cyclical. They tend to experience both totalitarian, and some form of democracy. However, I doubt that there has ever been a utopian culture.
CATO: As I mentioned earlier, when there's no cook book answer you conveniently neglect to respond.
I brought up several comments from the
Bill and Melinda Gates foundation.
One of which is
"Philanthropy plays an important but limited role."
I also gave examples of cooperative ventures this foundation joined in with government and other non profit agencies.
It's a simple point. If the richest person on the planet, who recently turned into a philanthropist believes
philanthropy is needs the cooperation of governments, I would take him at his word. Libertarianism is anti community plain and simple.
While Gate's contributions to charitable causes are large and generous they are ultimately insufficient and that's according the today's most benevolent philanthropist.
Why would I believe you over him?
"Furthermore if peoplehad more excess money to donate they would."
It depends on what you call "excess".
Again, your premise has little credibility. What proof do you have that people would contribute more. I think they would just spend more on themselves. LIfestyles expand to matche available funds. Just as work expands to match the available time.
Again the "invisible Claw of the Market" fixes everything.
Again you cite the rediculous extreme.
The government coming to kill you?
For crying out loud. Examples of this are more rare than getting struck by lightning or even winning the lottery. Get Real.
Cato:
Am I correct in assuming the concept of "community" is in conflict with libertarian idealism? That would be much like a libertarian political party, since it's all about the individual.
CATO: You are right and have your priorities in the proper order.
The need for a $6000 Plasma Hi Def
TV certainly out weights the need for milk for the children of the working poor. I don't know why I ever doubted you. I am convinced.
BTW I have a 1986 Sony on an antenna. Works fine to view most of the crap on the commercial channels. Luckily there's still Public TV for the times when I might want to learn something or watch the BBC to get real new, not entertainment. (Do you know who was kicked of Big Brother last?)
Maybe you should check it out since your still seem to be operating in the world of 17th Century Newtonian physics instead of 20th Century string theory and quantum mechanics.
So far it seems you've had the good sense to pay your taxes and not get killed. If you ever decide to make that stand give me some notice. I'd like to watch that Western.
Again, the scenerio of the government killing someone for non-payment of taxes is less than dying of small pox or TB or pserosis of the liver. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any less likely cause of death.
As for Christianity and Libertarianism being compatiable.
Name one Christian Libertain of note. The majority are aethiests.
What really amuzing is that people like D. James Kennedy use the same arguments as you to convince people that the U.S. is a "Christian" nation. (Christian like him not others ).
Cato:
You're taking cheapshots at Al Gore. I believe he doesn't use public tranit or take welfare and, according to your view, that's enough to qualify him to be a libertarian.
Maybe I'm simplifing this too much. Maybe you both avoid the above mentioned, but you have a different worldview. If that is the case, is your's the right/correct worldview and Gore's the wrong/incorrect worldview.
Caot:
My point was that you think you have the correct/right worldview and Gore has the wrong/incorrect worldview. You can get offended and tap dance around the fat of my question, but what about the meat of it. You are right and Gore is wrong for not having the same worldview as you...
From the dreaded Wikipedia:
"Badnarik polled just under 400,000 popular votes nationwide, in the November 2, 2004 election, taking 0.34% of the popular vote and placing fourth, just behind Ralph Nader."
If that is the most notable Christian Libertarian I think the movements in a bit of trouble.
Other than a couple of bumper stickers, I've seen nothing about the man.
In the quick an limited research I've done on the web about the man,
Christian has never come up as a prominent attribute.
This is what the American Conservative
says about libertarianism.
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_03_14/article1.html
"......libertarianism is basically the Marxism of the Right. If Marxism is the delusion that one can run society purely on altruism and collectivism, then libertarianism is the mirror-image delusion that one can run it purely on selfishness and individualism. Society in fact requires both individualism and collectivism, both selfishness and altruism, to function."
And my newly adopted cookbook website says:
The "Party of Oxymoron": "Individualists unite!"
CATO said:
"And wikipedia is a pretty terrible site for any topic other than reearching say, Herman Melville (that is to say any issue that may have political implications where someone may have an "agenda" in changing the information or distorting it, it can, will and is done so)."
I'm not totally familiar with the Wiki review process (just the name is enough to turn me off to it). In general I'd agree.
But are is the vote count inaccurate?
"I do not have city water or sewer"
I think you might start having more of a concern about pollution if a one of the neighborhood farmers started pouring pesticides in your well.
You said:
"And of course, I do not live in New Richmond proper, although apparently they want to extend the lines of the town to squeeze more money out of me, which means I do not have city water or sewer."
You don't seem to have a problem with people picking your pocket as long as it's not "The GOVERNMENT".
$10.00/gal Gas OK. $300 monoplistic operating system no problem. I can't
help but think there's more personal anomosity than logic reason and principal in your worldview.
Maybe we should go back to talking computers, it's much less stressful:-)
CATO:
You take JPN's and my verbal jabs way too seriously. They're only an attempt to inject a little humor into the conversation. Give it a try yourself,
I think we can take it, and maybe get a laugh in the process.
Cato
Actually all the prophesies that were fulfilled did exist hundreds of years prior to when Christ walked the earth. There is substantiation of Chist in three religions, agnostic historical data, and eyewitness accounts. The many of writings of the New Testament were by people living while Christ was alive, and the miracles alluded to were even discussed in secular historical text. In a culture that relied primarily on verbal versus written word, Christ was very well doccumented. Even the apostles were willing (and did) die as witnesses. Again, Christ would not have been a Democrat, Republican or Libertarian. He was not concerned about the earthly ideals, but your hart, and acceptance of him for your salvation. The rejection of Christ is the rejection of salvation. Saying that I suggest that you study a little more.
You never did respond to the historical cyclical nature of cultures.
Cato;
Ultimately, we all need each other. Your alluding to the lack of need for public services is flawed. Tell me that if your involved in an accident, have a fire or are the victum of a crime. Public and private entities should be balanced. Without the public (which by the was is the people) oversight, you would be hard pressed to prove to any reasonable person that private enterprise wouldn't be overflowing with fraud, not that it isn't happening enough right now. In the end the masses must be appeased, or repressed. Without a balance you will have the cyclical effect occurring much more rapidly, and violently. An elitist society (which you seem to be a proponant), ultimately does not last.
CATO:
"If it was a buisness and someone was treating customers like I have been treated there, the post office and the social security office, among other places.. someone would have gotten fired."
Has it occurred to you that you may play some role in their attitude. You said you were "fuming" the whole time there. I'll bet you were "fuming" before you walked in the door. Add to that the constant bashing public employees have taken for the last 20 years. Do you think that's a positive incentive to boost morale? You seem to like the "Big Stick" Style of management.
I've been mistreated in plenty of private businesses. Try to negotiate with a bank, or Cell phone company.
You can't get anywhere past their policy. Then they ask you if you were satisfied with their service.
What do you say! If you complain the
poor working person who has to pick your pocket with a smile gets canned or repremanded, not the policy makers. Not too long ago I contacted Social Security and to my utter surprise the lady helped me emmensely with information I could not have found by myself. So much so that I asked to speak to her supervisor to commend her. (I think the supervisor had a heart attack shortly after my call.) I have also
had similar experiences with private
enterprises. I don't think competition is the driving issue behind good service. I think it's the individual placed in an environment where they are free to excercise their own good judgement.
I also know that there have been times where I have been rude to customer service people. I'm learning that I get better service if I treat them with dignity.
I can also see where poor customer service can piss you off.
I tried to get my password reset on
a phone company web site. This was done for me previously, but this agent insisted that it couldn't be done without waiting 24hr. I asked to be connected with people in charge of that issue and she told me there wasn't anybody. I hung up, called back , got another agent and the issue was resolved in min.s.
Competition had nothing to do with it.
Speaking in Cato's defnese, these employees should always have a totally pleasant attitude and should treat everyone who walks into the door as if they were the queen of England. This correlates to all public students getting all A's in all their classes. In an idealist world, that's what we'd have.
Do you have some free Bubble-Up for my Rainbow stew?
From the newspaper story the other day on schools, it appears the same breeze blows through the public and private schools.
Lord Cato:
Do you have an inferiority or a superiority complex? It's seems you are a holder of the absolute, correct knowledge and are never treated with the respect you demand of your public servants
In the absolute sense, you may be right about having to deal with gov.
To say you have no choice is incorrect. It will cost me the full cost of the "contract" I was coerced into to drop my cell phone. If you don't like the person you're dealing with at Soc.sec. get another number and go to another window.
You see, it's always so easy to explain to people you don't agree with how much freedom they have even thought they feel restricted.
Sure, if you're paraylized and don't like the health care system you're dealing with. There's competition.
You can wait till the next open enrollment period, subscribe to a similar plan, check out of the hospital and you're all set. Now that's freedom! I love liberty!
I said before:
"You see, it's always so easy to explain to people you don't agree with how much freedom they have even thought they feel restricted."
You just proved my point. You're freedom is impinged upon but mine is not. I can't believe how egocentric your statements can be.
Andy:
Cato does follow in the Tom Paine mode of liberty. He had all kinds of ideas on how to tear things down but nothing to contributed on the reconstruction that comes later. I guess the goal of idealists is to first level the landscape and worry about the rest later.
Frankly, I'm tire of talking about my cell phone. My point was my options were seriously restricted and the "contract" was deceptive and coerced at best. Like you , I don't like my choices to be curtailed, it seems it's just who does the curtailing that we differ about.
I'll give you a better trade. You take
someones severe disablility, and I'll refund your 7.1% and then some.
Two things I've saidbefore.
1. I'm tired of talking about cell phones.
2. There was no written contract. You activate the phone, you made the agreement, and they won't talk to you about the phone till you activate it.
Yeah it pissed me off.
If I were you I'd read the fine print on your "private" disability insurance. Here's what will happen you get disabled. They pay the % amount of wages until you apply for soc. sec. If you don't qualify for Soc. sec. you're not disabled. Your're SOL.
When and if SS is granted you pay your insurance co. back what soc. sec. pays you. Your private insurance then pays a small fraction of you wages at the time of disablility. What a racket. Here you think you have a % of you income protected. Ha!!
Cato
As much as it hurts, to a limited extent I agree with you on Social Security. As I see it, Social Security has been tainted from it's limited intent. Politicains, and special interest groups got their hands into it.
I'd suggest that if we brought it back to it's origional intent (strictly retirement fund) it would be in a much healthier status. Force the politicians out of it, or put their retirement into that fund, and it wouldn't be raided like it has been. The State attempted to do the same in Wisconsin until they were prohibited through the court, and it is self sufficient and healthy.
Cato:
Good explanation. It helps explain why the ideals of libertarianism won't work. Politics, politcs, politics.
Regardless of what the original intent was, politicians have away of evolving programs into bureacracies lined with pork. As you say, a large percentage of people see SS as a retirement/entitlement.
The children of the Depression era are dying out now. They might have lived through the Depression, but they didn't management the money and worry about were the food came from. Their parents did and they are gone. They knew what it was like to have cupboards bare, no money in the bank and the lights shutoff. We know have a nation that expects that their will be something in the cupboards for everyone and they at least have a flimsy sheet to cover themselves for the coming cold realities of retirement.
I don't see SS going away and I don't the politic balls to pull it off. The fear factor would be the great tipping point. Not being the libertarian idealist that you are, I see the need to increase the qualifying age for SS and to remove the cutoff cap so that everybody pays the 6.7+% on all income. That would make the SS tax a flat tax -- which you advocate -- removed the stain of a regressive tax that enriches the wealthy who are already benefitting from excessive income tax breaks and loopholes.
Cato:
To convert your idelaist perspective into political/economical reality you have to brainwash the vast majority of people in this country into believing in the almight bootstrap theory that you have been discussing. To keep your haves with all the pie shells and pie less the crumbs that fall to the have-not, you have to resort to brainwashing and single issue politics that suck in the one-issue hillbillies of our country.
Conversely, to work for a playing field that is level and/or equitable, we have to rely on education and the ballot box. Propaganda and fear have always been the tools of choice for the puppeteers of profits. To fight the oppression of those that want to keep the masses barefooted, ignorant and categorized as just another factor of production -- like a screw or piece of plastic -- the power of the ballot box is essential. Hence, the need for a progressive tax system. A good start would be the social security tax.
Cato:
"Equitable" and "level playing field" are bad choices of concepts. This has nothing to do with the bootstrap idealism you've discussed. It really has to do with a class consciousness that needs to be driven down to the have-nots that they must us the power of the ballot box to take the ill gotten gains away from their greedy oppossers.
We need the democratic lynch mob to know that they can take it back from the haves. We are not talking your intellectual parlor game. We are talking about the exercise of pragmatic politcal power.
That's right Cato, for words like "fair" are non-existant to a true libertarian like yourself. There's no "good" or "bad." People are nothing more that factors of production. I suspect from your libertarina perspective, once a human gets to old or physically able to work, they should be discarded like any other factor of production. Maybe families should be allowed to sell their aged parents at some point to be ground up into pet food or garden fertilizer...as long as they can make a buck.
Your's is a philosophy that views people as a way to make a buck and a nuisance -- unless there is some profit in the transaction.
"Haves" and "have-nots" are realative terms that depend on time and place. We don't live in 1776. There's been an Industrial Revolution or two since then. From your perspective, the idea of a minimun wage is just another socialist program that needs to tossed out. Dream on little dreamer dream on...
“Power is about making sure that every voice and every vote counts.”
Minimum wage is an accepted concept in the US. There is nothing wrong with socialism. It's a practical concept that has grown out of the Industrial Revolution that pulled people out of the world of selfsufficient and into the world were they were living in urban emcampments performing jobs that are dependent on the ebs and flows of the consumers' tastes and preferences.
The Industrial Revolution started in the late 1700s and is still happening...depending on what neighborhood you live in.
When you say something is "bad policy," of course, you are expressing your opinion not a fact. Correct?
Workers are free to donate an excess capital acquired to the homeless vets of their choice. Employers are being forced to be socially responsible.
I am not a vet, but I find it offensive in the extreme to refer to
homeless vets as parasites!!!!!!!!
Whatever psychological damage that resulted from their war experience was certainly not of their choosing.
Employers being in control of the
"means of production" are automatically at an advantage over workers. The playing field starts unevenly.
You also said:
"Only a philosophy that views people as ends unto themselves is justifiable."
This is utterly incompatible with Christianity.
Cato:
To me, it doesn't matter if your scapegoats are the homeless, the public school teachers, the unions, the politicians, the blind, the Welfare Parasites, the disabled, the female sex, the vegetarians, or the Communist Party. To the extent that you need a scapegoat, you simply have not got your brain programmed to work as an efficient problem-solving machine. Your brain only seems to program to mouth the platitudes of you indoctrinatiors.
We need more selfish capitalists like Donald Trump. Inherit your wealth and become a parasite who can't turn a profit but can point a finger at someone vastly more qualified than him and say "you're fired."
Cato rhimes with Dildo.
Cato:
I think you meant to say the people of this world are masochists, and the government is one big spiked dildo.
CATO:
"How is viewing people as ends not means (Stalin viewed people as means) incompatible with Christianity?"
Communism is not compatible with either. It is economic determinism.
Maybe it's just too simple for you. If people are an ends onto themselves, there is no need for God.
Christianity is based emulating the selfless example of Christ. Objectivism is centered on the ultimate selfishness of me, myself and I. Not that Christians are not selfish, but they recognized themselves are sinners as falling short of the Glory of God. Objectivists deny original sin and see humanity as the ultimately rational and good.
I think reality speaks for itself as to the inate "goodness" of man.
You only show respect for man's accomplishments not man as man or as Christians would say children of God.
Maybe you mean something entirely different than what I interpreted?
Anonymous,
As much as I agree with your Trump
senitments.
Dildo and Cato is a pretty poor
rhyme and really uncalled for.
Any one who advocates the doctrine of universal selfish and slanders the dedicately -- and often times drafted -- soldiers who fought and died for the likes of Cato to parrott his crap on this or any blog in the universe deserve a literary knee in the nuts once and awhile.
What luck for rulers that men do not think.
― Adolf Hitler
Hey Slam U L:
This ain't speaking, this is typing.
Anon:
"Any one who advocates the doctrine of universal selfish and slanders the dedicately -- and often times drafted -- soldiers who fought and died for the likes of Cato to parrott his crap on this or any blog in the universe deserve a literary knee in the nuts once and awhile."
As much as I disagree with CATO's point of view, I will defend his right to express it. That's what our soldiers fought for.
Cato sounds very much like a frequent user from OTBL that likes to refer to people as units. Unfortunately Cato, I don't think you get it.
What is frustrating with your extreme opinion, is the lack of compassion for anyone other than self. I suspect that you live in a very self-imposed isolated world.
You didn't reply to several of my earlier questions about the reality of Christ. I suspect that is because acknowledging him, and his messianic teachings would rock your world. I don't know if you are involved in any form of voluntairyism, but, if you were, you would recognise that there are very real people in this country that do need help.
Cato; good argument, but not valid. In a world that at the time was literally limited, much less the cost of papyrus. Some portions of "The Word" were actually written closer to 30-32 AD. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John each reported as they saw (some via scribe), and each gospil was based on the authors report versus a duplicated report from one primary author. The timing of the production of many of the texts were comparably recent vs other historical documents. Though noted, "Q" has not yet been found. Theory was that it was used at a reference for verbal proclaimations of Christ's word. Actually, possibly similar to the Gospel of Thomas (not canonized).
Very clearly Christ did not profess Gnostic ideas, though there could easly have been some confusion as identified in the various gospels that were considered gnostic, and not canonized.
The denial of Christ's miracles are simply your opinion, and not refuted historically, or by witness accounts. I accept Mary as a person that gave birth to Christ, and part of the proclaimed lineage of Christ, but not a Diety, though given a great gift.
Cato; I hope that you do more research, and reconsider your opinion of Christ.
As a side note, Though I disagree, I do appreciate your candor. Matreial wealth only lasts until we die, you don't have much gain after that. In what seems to be your opinion, everything then just ends. I believe that it is just the beginning. Though I'm by no means poor, my belonings are just that, material. I've witnessed many situations where life for people abruptly ends. At that time, their acquired material wealth suddenly became meaningless.
CATO:
I know you are in the midst of an interesting scriptural debate with anon. but...
How do you reconcile these two statements made by you in this very thread?
"Have-nots are nothing more than fairy tales the government tells children to take their money."
"I do understand there are people who need help. I never denied that."
Perhaps the first is only hyperbole?
CATO:said
"Sure there are "poor" people. But nearly all poor people have a color tv, most have two cars, almost all have heating, most have AC, and the average living space for a "poor person" in this country is more than a "middle class" person in Europe. Oh my god they are so poor! They don't have 3 cars, what a life of destitution!"
You can't really believe this?
I know people with disablities that are suppost to live on less than $1000/mo and have NO car and cannot afford to see a dentist. If this is
your vision of the "poor" in this country your are certainly delusional. And you would have that income taken from them as well.
--------------
"I did give money to one guy just for being clever and making me laugh once though:
"Ninjas killed my family. Need money for kung-fu lessons."
I guess this does prove you have a sense of humor.
Cato
Secret Mark was written over 100 years after Christs death, and as with many other non canonozed texts, the auther was in question. Likewise there was a strong effort to refute Christ. Christ did not disagree with the law or what abonimations were, but he did say the salvation was through him. Christ became the sacrificial unblemished lamb as prophecis predicted. A
roab without underclothing was not uncommon, but had nothing to do with homosexuality. I disagree with your reference. I've read that document along with the archaeological study material. It was not written by Mark. Actually there would be more of a caes for Mary Magdalene and Christ. Sorry Cato, your a bit off.
"However, I don't know people with disabilites."
If this is true, you indeed lead a sheltered life.
Perhaps in the most extreme cases obesity can be a disability. Some of the obese are that way because they got a rotten throw of the gene pool dice. Most are not, I agree.
"I have no idea whether or not they deserve my aid? "
Why not download a Soc.Sec. Disability Form, fill it out and apply. There are qualifications. In some instances they are so restricive they can not reasonably be investigated or enforced. In those instance where the qualifications are circumvented we are looking at fraud, not disability. Disabilities need to be verified by several medical doctors.
I don't think doctors would risk their licences to practice medicine to accommodate fraud. Some might but
probably sooner or later wind up in jail.
The first fragment of the Secret Gospel of Mark, meant to be inserted between Mark 10.34 and 35, reads:
They came to Bethany. There was one woman there whose brother had died. She came and prostrated herself before Jesus and spoke to him. "Son of David, pity me!" But the disciples rebuked her. Jesus was angry and went with her into the garden where the tomb was. Immediately a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going up to it, Jesus rolled the stone away from the door of the tomb, and immediately went in where the young man was. Stretching out his hand, he lifted him up, taking hold his hand. And the youth, looking intently at him, loved him and started begging him to let him remain with him. And going out of the tomb, they went into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus gave him an order and, at evening, the young man came to him wearing nothing but a linen cloth. And he stayed with him for the night, because Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And then when he left he went back to the other side of the Jordan.
Then a second fragment of Secret Mark is given, this time to be inserted into Mark 10.46. This has long been recognized as a narrative snag in Mark's Gospel, as it awkwardly reads, "Then they come to Jericho. As he was leaving Jericho with his disciples..." This strange construction is not present in Secret Mark, which reads:
Then he came into Jericho. And the sister of the young man whom Jesus loved was there with his mother and Salome, but Jesus would not receive them.
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Meanwhile over in Greece:
More recently, several authors, have argued that pederasty was not the only form of homosexuality known in Greek and Roman culture in the first century AD. Smith and Boswell especially give numerous examples of homosexual relationships that were not age structured, and were based on mutual consent. Moreover, both Roman and Greek cultures accepted homosexuality, and at times instituted it in non-pederastic forms. For example, Polybius (2nd century BC, Rome) reports that "most young men had male lovers" [Greenberg, 154]. Further, "many of the Roman emperors had homosexual tastes," and "in Greece, sexual preferences were frequently not exclusive," to the inclusion of Julius Caesar (Cato states that he was "every woman's husband, and every man's wife") [Greenberg, 155-56].
That is correct in how some people misinterpreted Christ's word, and it missed Christ's point. He is the Mesiah. Cato, I can't make you believe, that is an issue you seem to be fighting with.
What Christ said must be placed in the context of how he communicated, and the language of the day. He often spoke in parables, yet he was clear on sin and redemption. When looking at an example of language, nails were said to have been driven through Christ's hands, yet at that time, the wrist was considered part of the hand. The Roman's were particularly good at torture and carrying out punishment(crucifixion being one of the worst).They knew that putting a stake through the palm would tear out, and by putting it through the wrist would hold. The wrist has a very sensitive nerve (causing excruciating pain), would lock the hand, and hold the person in place. I'm not a scholar, and have been communicating from what I know, and believe. I haven't been using my references to this point, but it looks like I'll need to. I'll get back on the issues soon, but I'm working on some projects at home and will have to delay my reply.
Cato:
Your statement "When I say "deserve"... only someone who will use it for something I find beneficial to me or humankind would deserve my aid. Continuing a sad existence does not benefit me or humankind," strikes me as Hilter-lite. You don't advocate actually stuffing those that you deem the bottom feeders of society into the ovens, you would prefer to just let them wither into a coma and die -- hopefully out in the woods where public employees wouldn't have to use taxpayer dollars to dispose to their carcusses.
I don't think the libertarian party will be hiring you into their PR department.
666,
I think CATO knocked off his wealth building/blogging activities for the day. Good excuse for not responding.
Cato:
Cut that crap out about your hotsy totsy libertarian ideals, shutoff that damn computer and get your ass up here front and center. It's the wseekend and I've got a "honey-do" list for you...
Cato:
If it makes you feel better, I'm listening to Rush on the CD player. The current song is Freewill.
Gone Fishing
No without a six pack of Blogger Lager...
Cato
Just to finish off this discusson from last week;
The Secret Gospel of Mark is thought to have been produced between 100 & 200 years AD. There is no substantiated proof that it was anything than a fraud. Additionally, there was no other substantiation to those texts.
It is unknown who moved the stone, but most certainly, if Christ had not died, he would have been in no condition to move the stone much less walk, or use his hands. Based on the practice of crucifixtions, and the testimony given in Christs crucifixion, he died. To believe that he move the stone blocking the tomb, would indicate a recognition of his rising. Sorry Cato, I don't buy your story.
If it was true that Jesus really didn't perform miracles, would that mean He wasn't the Son of God and that all Christian religion is based on lies and propaganda?
Cato
The miracles were based on witness accounts, and what is written in the supporting texts Biblically. I don't know that other than through faith, one can trust (believe the miricles). The same has been said by some twisted individuals on the Holocaust. Though I disagree with you on issues, you at least will debate, and I respect that.
Christ did die through Crucifixion, I believe that. I've studied forensics at the FBI national academy, and elsewhere. Based on the reporting of physiological data given, it is factual. I've seen more than my share of dead people, as I'm sure the Roman Solders did, I suspect that they were very experienced at recognizing death. There were reported accounts of witnessing Christ risen, again I believe the truthfulness to those reports. Many of those witnesses were willing to live difficult lives, and many ultimately gave their lives in horrible ways to profess their observarions, and as witnesses their knowledge of Christ, and his resurrection. Most people would have given it up if they knew these things to be lies, and there would have been documentation of that acknowledgement.
Cato;
I hope you do change your mind about your faith.
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