Above The Borderline: A New School Year Begins OnThe Border Line

9/17/2005

A New School Year Begins OnThe Border Line

68 comments:

Anonymous said...: JPN, I love this cartoon. It is right on.

In 1995, HHS graduating class was 250. This year's freshman class is 430. The skunks call this a population bubble - since enrollment will start to drop off soon. Yes, and skunks will learn to fly too.

When a building referendum does come in Hudson, the ferocity of the skunks' "Vote No" campaign will be like nothing see before. The amount of misinformation they provide the public, and the harrassment of the administration and board will divide the town.

All we can do is roll up our sleeves and git-r-done!; August 31, 2005
Anonymous said...: It's interesting that the skunks OTBL see things dropping off. I'm not sure if they have taken a driven outside their closed minds recent. I noticed a great deal of housing construction in the Hudson area. I believe that St. Croix county is the 10th fastest growing country in the US.

In New Richmond, they are getting after the superintendent about his numbers being wrong. They OTBL-types said the growth projections of 3 percent were too high. Actually, they were too low. It will be 4+ percent this year. Who do they think is building all these houses?

Thanks for stopping by and sharing you comments.; September 01, 2005
JPN said...: I'm not quite sure this is a direct quote from the OTBL'ers -- but a little shunk told me they talk about it at their team hot tub parties -- "100 years ago they didn't need computers in school. Those chaulk slates worked just fine. All the mothers were staying at home, directing the colored servants in the proper stoking of the home fires, mixing martinis, preparing the slippers and rolling back the satin sheets for daddy's awaited return from a hard day of fighting legislation that would creat child labor laws."

...or was I just having a "Leave It To Beaver" flashback.; September 01, 2005
Anonymous said...: I really don't get how you can drive around a town and say that it's growing in student population. Most of the housing according to Dennis something or other, sorry I can't think of his last name but he works for the city. He said something to the affect that it's couples or older people that are buying in. My understnding was that the numbers projected by the school district were way off and that the actual numbers were down in the elementary schools and the high school only increased by some 46 students.
One thing I have taken notice of is the homeschoolers in Hudson are growing by leaps and bounds! I could not believe the number of new homeschoolers every year. So...looking at that and seeing that the kindergardten numbers are down, that alone says something. My wife and I are retired and we may not be able to live in Hudson much longer. We have lived her all our lives and our children live here (they homeschool a total of our 17 grandchildren)and we do not forsee that they would ever consider the public school system. The Hudson schools are not overcrowded. My many years of experience shows that you can make anything look the way you choose to make it look.; September 07, 2005
Anonymous said...: Obviously you haven't been to the high school. Why don't you meander down there at lunch time and see if you can get through the hallways. There are over 1600 students in a building designed for 1400. Students have to go outside between classes in order to get to the next class in time, and that's in the middel of winter. As for homeschooling, I have a Post Graduate degree and don't feel nearly qualified to teach every subject. If your children can adaquately educate your grandchildren in Biology, Calculus, Enriched Chemistry, as well as World Literature, and Advanced English composition, they should be out there writing books on how to home school kids and should become pretty darn wealthy doing it.
And what extra curricular activities are these grandchildren involved in? Do you have your own football team? Do they put plays on in the basement? I'm sure you'll be saying the schools aren't overcrowed when they start moving trailers in.
The Hudson Star Observer just reported that St. Croix Co. is the fastest growing county in WI. and one of the fastest growing in the country. But in the end people believe what they want to believe.
Sounds like Mississippi, might have the educational environment to suit you. I apologize for the angry tone.
I'm sure it's difficult on a fixed income to meet your expenses. Maybe if the Bush administration didn't cater to the top 5% of income earners and price gouging oil companies things would be different.; September 08, 2005
Anonymous said...: First of all I beleieve that you have never seen the homeschooling materials. They have classes in Biology, chemistry etc. They do have people who are actual chemists and bioligists teaching these things. Also, yes the homeschoolers do get involved, probrably more so than the average public school child.
The colleges actually prefer homeschooled children to public school children because of thier well rounded and very expanded eduacation also thier test scores are way above average. Do some checking with some schools like Harvard and Yale and ask them how they feel about homeschoolers. I think you will be very surprised. Our eldest granchild, Katie, who has been homeschooled for 7 years has been accepted and she is no exception.
As far as for the comment on President Bush. I find comment interesting is it not the top 5% whom the govt takes the most money from in the first place? Remember the old adage, the more you make the more they take? Why should someone who has a higher degree of eduacation or has a higher paying job or even is self made millionare be made to pay more in taxes. The wealthy get welthier because they are working hard to make the money, they are not homeless and lazy and perhapps if they had more of thier money rather than giving it to the govt than they too shall give more of it away. It would be like saying that the govt should controll your tithing to the church. " well, sir, you make $100.000 a year so we are going to take $25,000 out of your paycheck autotmatically and give it your church" How right is that? You should be the one to say"I have an extra $2083.00 a month and I will give it to ..." It should be your choice not thiers. More people would be helping each other if the govt were not so involved and so many were not leaning on the govt (a souless entity)for help.
In the old days, families lived together and took care of each other. Now a days you pawn off that responsibility on the government. Just look at New Orleans, what a prime example of folks living off the government. Don't even bother to remark unless you have been there adn worked with these people. There are 12 year old children selling thier bodies in the streets. The wife and I took a long trip many years ago and tried to help a few families. The response was very cold, they like thier lifestyle, they enjoy doing nothing and recieving checks in the mail. It's no different than your children. If you hand them everything in life than they don't need to learn to do things or to appreciate things. Give a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.
As far as your tone, it is okay, I forgive you. I know it must be hard to raise a family and earn a living in this world the way it has evolved. We have turned away from God in the schools and in the work place, morality is at at all time low with the average 12 year old already being sexually active, smoking, drinking and experimenting with drugs. This bit I found out from the junior high right here in town. It's sad thing, the councelors have thier hands full.
May God Bless your Day!; September 08, 2005
Anonymous said...: Sir,
I do see where you are going with this and perhapps our "camps" as you put it are looking at different things yet putting them into the same catagory. For example when I speak of the wealthy I speak of John who lives in a nice home and works hard to make an honest living. John went to college for 8 years because he had a wife and children and could only take a few classes at night, and now is making whopping 170,000 a year! He, sir is considered rich according to people in your camp. I beleive that we all feel the same about conglomorates taking over small business and putting Peter and his family owned business out of business. Are we on the same page? yes and no. I think quite often we pretend to know what the other is thinking, we put words into eachothers mouths etc. As fr as those who squanedr money, yes they do exist, but #1 who are we to judge that? #2 there are more Johns out there who would like to be able to do more but can't because the govt takes such dip into thier paychecks.

As far as the school system. A school is only as good as the teachers. A true teacher can teach anywhere. That is why homeschooling is not for everyone. The parent in this case needs to set down rules and stick to them. The child needs to know his/her limits and the child needs routine. I have seen homeschool parents that have failed, but they are far and few between.. I read earlier about here come the trailers. Let me tell you that my best friend, growing up was taught in a trailer. He went to school in I believe it was Georgia. There they saw that the number of students was on a rise but would in a few years time decline again. They chose to bring in I beleive he said they were 12x60' mobile homes and when the numbers came back down, the trialers were sold and the money used for the school. Dan went on to be an Aerospace engineer and worked for the govt. I hope you see where I am going with this story. A child's potential is increased with good teaching skills and good parental guidance. God gives each one a gift or two. Some are destined to be plumbers, Priests,mechanics, engineers, doctors etc. They are all necessary in this world and the amount of aptitude required for these different jobs is obviously different. There is the A+ student who takes advanced classes and never struggles with anything in school, it comes naturally and there is the C or D student where everything comes hard. The good Lord makes us the way we are and with good reason. What that reason is, we will never know but I am willing to be it's a doozy of a reason.
I look forward to talking to you because I think we have been misjuding eachother all these years.; September 08, 2005
Anonymous said...: Hello,

Your last comment intrigues me. "I look forward to talking to you because I think we have been misjuding eachother all these years."

I'd like to say that if you think I am JPN. I am not.
If you mean that as groups of "liberal" or "Conservatives" we are misjudging each other. I couldn't agree with you more. The divisions are exaggerated by the extremes of each "camp" as we have agreed to call them.
You say that "we all feel the same about conglomorates taking over small business." Perhaps you and I do,
but I can assure you that the leaders of the RNC and Karl Rove feel differently. These are the people who
finance their campaigns (and the campaigns of democrats as well). I've seen Pres. Bush state that the Haves and the Have-mores are his base. That's pretty obvious from his policies. That leaves the middle class and the have nots to take up the slack.The oil companies have "dipped into your paycheck" by doubling the cost of gas in the last year, and the same will be true to heat your home this winter.(Granted some of this is due to market forces they don't control, but the Bush policies contribute greatly to this also.)But your camp only complains about the government and taxes.
Somehow I hear the same message parroted about the welfare state. I'm sure it's spread by the Right wing talk
radio.Do you know anyone receiving welfare? If you'd listen to Rush Limbaugh you'd think it was half the country. Common sense would tell you that Mississippi and Louisiana couldn't possibly be "Welfare states". Are there people like you describe that don't want to work, Of course. Are they the majority not by any stretch of the imagination.
You people on the right are being propogandized without realizing it. Is there propoganda on the left as well.
Obviously yes. We tend to gravitate toward the group we identify with more and swallow their propoganda. If you haven't noticed the owner of this sight has provided links to views that span the political spectrum. From the outrages left to the outrageous right. It's only by listening to both and more likely those ing the middel if you can find andy,and choosing for yourself that you will find the truth.
This site was set up in response to the owner being kicked off a blog of the Outrageous right. Ontheborderline.net. The people on that site only want to hear one view, their veiw. If you don't agree with them
you are a Communist or a Socialist, end of story. Unlike Ontheborderline.net your views are welcome here. We may not agree with them, but as you can see you have the perfect right to express them. Surprisingly, as you seem to have discovered there can be agreement between people of different polictical persuasions.
I suppose that you think that we just love writing out our property tax checks each year. I can assure you I don't. I think there are better ways or better combinations of ways to fund public education. Those ontheborderline think that public education should be eliminated entirely. ( If you don't believe that, I can and will provide evidence of it.) Anyway, I pay my taxes with a bit less grumbling than your camp because I believe in the "common good". That is a concept that has evaporated from recent political life in America over the last few years, and I can assure you it was not by accident but by design.
I believe that every child in America deserves to receive an education.(Including those who are disabled who the private schools can simply reject.) Public schools may indeed lag slightly behind some private schools. You may be correct that throwing money at schools doesn't assure a quality education. But providing teachers with a reasonable wage and benefits does not hurt.These people have attended college and received their degrees, and I assure you none of them could ever dream of making $170,000/year. Try $31,000. Now is that rich? Is that a Cadilac job? Given the choice, I don't want my child being taught in a trailer. As a community, we can and should do better than that.
You speak of God giving each of us gifts. If a poorer child, who is less affluent through no fault of his own or his parents has a gift, should that be squandered because they were not given the opportunity to develope that gift through education. If public schools were eliminated that would surely be the case. Most parents I speak with believe that the schoold do a pretty good job of educating our kids. Could they do better, yes. Could teacher's be more caring and more engaged, yes. That is what I'm hearing from students, and you are right, more
money will not fix that.
I would guess that you are against building new schools. Sooner or later you know that we will need them. In my
opinion, we in Hudson have missed a golden opportunity. With interest rates being at historic lows a year or 2 ago we could have planned an built for the future for much less money than it will cost us eventually. The short sightedness of those who will only consider building after the schools are bursting at the seams, which they are close to doing, will in the end have cost taxpayers more money not less or they will have cheated Hudson students from an important aspect of receiving a quality education. Your solution seems to be homeschooling.
There are many or most parents who could not even consider this option because of they're personal situations.
I would be one of them. I know of many, many many others for whom this is not an option. Hudson is not some failing urban school district. It is near the top in terms of quality. Could there be improvements, sure.
But I, and if you asked the majority of Hudsonites and they answered you honestly, would never be willing to
"throw the baby out with the bathwater" as proposed by many ontheborderline.
Please continue to comment and express your opinion.

Good bye for now.; September 08, 2005
Anonymous said...: "cheated Hudson students from an important aspect of receiving a quality education." with this statement you have just doubletalked yourself into a corner. What you are saying is that Hudson students could not possibly get a quality eduaction unless we build new schools, yet you agreed with me that it's the teacher / parent that is responsible for providing the quality. It's not the building as I used my friend as an example. Quality education does not take money, if it did than what happened back when we had one room schoolhouses etc. there was no money but yet the children recieved a quality education and grew up to be aspiring engineers, arcitects and machinists and of the like.
Why do you say that you would not want your child to be taught in a trailer. Trailers are warm, smaller classrooms, and a more intimate learning enviroment. I think a child would feel more comfortable in a trailer than in a brick walled room.
As far as the welfare state...It is not overblown at all, we just do not see it here in Hudson WI.
Have you ever been to Paris California? 98% of this entire town is on welfare. On the 1st and the 15th of the month, the lines at the banks are out the doors ALL DAY LONG (open to close) and into the next day as well. This an entire town I tell you. Beleive me when I say that the children of the most of those recipients walk in barefooted and dirty and the parents have nice clothes and speak of going "out on the town" with thier paychecks. They used to sell thier foodstamps for booze and cigarettes, which is why the govt came up with the debit FS card. Those people did not want to work, life was so easy party till the money runs out, beg for food for the children and wait till the next check. Oh yes, I was there and a sorry bunch they are.

Since you brought up the other blog site, yes I have been there as well. One thing I did notice is that this site seems to refer to them an awful lot.I enjoy reading both sites. This site makes fun of the way they think yet you say that we are welcome to have our own opinions...aparently that statement is untrue, except for you and I suppose. It is obvious that this site does not like anything about the ones who post on that site but yet I never read anything on OTBL that speaks badly of those on this site (refering to Abovethe border)hmm.
I do beleive that those Ontheborderline are good people as well, they simply have a different way of getting thier point across. Sometimes I have to wonder what it is that some of them do for a living because they speak a bit over the average persons head.
I follow the Hudson newspaper as well and I will tell you that at times I have to read and reread and find an interpreter to help me understand the point. Luckily I live with a scholarly woman who has a kick left! haha. But sure enough I must say that the current board of eduaction does have some issues to deal with. I beleive that they must think we are a bunch of idiots sometimes. Even I have noticed the playing with numbers and the jumping around and the inuendos. I do wish that they would just admit that they screwed up and move on. Ron was a definate problem. I golfed with him a few times in my day and I will say that cheaters always get caught, as he did. I for one was glad to see him bow out gracefully, better than ending up in jail I suppose. Goodness, it's late and time for me to retire for the evening. I look forward to our next conversation.
May we both be Blessed with a peaceful nights sleep.; September 08, 2005
Anonymous said...: "cheated Hudson students from an important aspect of receiving a quality education." with this statement you have just doubletalked yourself into a corner. What you are saying is that Hudson students could not possibly get a quality eduaction unless we build new schools, yet you agreed with me that it's the teacher / parent that is responsible for providing the quality. It's not the building as I used my friend as an example.
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I’m afraid I don’t see my contradiction. Can students get a “quality education in a trailer? I suppose they could. Could you live a “quality life” in God’s eyes in a shack? Most certainly. But would you want to? I wouldn’t, so I wouldn’t want my child taught is a poor environment like a trailer. I don’t see any double talk here.

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Quality education does not take money, if it did than what happened back when we had one room schoolhouses etc. there was no money but yet the children recieved a quality education and grew up to be aspiring engineers, arcitects and machinists and of the like.
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Machinists didn’t learn to be machinists without lathes, and mills and drill presses. Those things cost money back then and the tools students need today cost money now.
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Why do you say that you would not want your child to be taught in a trailer. Trailers are warm, smaller classrooms, and a more intimate learning enviroment. I think a child would feel more comfortable in a trailer than in a brick walled room.

As far as the welfare state...It is not overblown at all, we just do not see it here in Hudson WI.
Have you ever been to Paris California? 98% of this entire town is on welfare. On the 1st and the 15th of the month, the lines at the banks are out the doors ALL DAY LONG (open to close) and into the next day as well. This an entire town I tell you. Beleive me when I say that the children of the most of those recipients walk in barefooted and dirty and the parents have nice clothes and speak of going "out on the town" with thier paychecks. They used to sell their foodstamps for booze and cigarettes, which is why the govt came up with the debit FS card. Those people did not want to work, life was so easy party till the money runs out, beg for food for the children and wait till the next check. Oh yes, I was there and a sorry bunch they are.
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As I mentioned earlier, I welcome your opinion but I don’t feel compelled to agree with it. I don’t doubt that what you say may be true in some places. But I don’t think the statistics would prove that it exists to the extent you believe.
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Since you brought up the other blog site, yes I have been there as well. One thing I did notice is that this site seems to refer to them an awful lot.I enjoy reading both sites. This site makes fun of the way they think yet you say that we are welcome to have our own opinions...aparently that statement is untrue, except for you and I suppose. It is obvious that this site does not like anything about the ones who post on that site but yet I never read anything on OTBL that speaks badly of those on this site (refering to Abovethe border)hmm.
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You are right. I for one don’t like much, if anything, that is written on the other site. Once in a while they will make a point I can agree with but usually they have a view of the world that is entirely contrary to mine.
There are also things that the people over there have said and done that are very distasteful. Read “Dr.” Danielson’s post on personal attacks today. (He’s not a real Doctor, he pretends to be one on the blog.) As I mentioned before, if you don’t agree with them you are a Socialist or a Communist. They are already calling the new Superintendent of Schools names. They have even posted negative remarks about the children of people who they disagree with. There are things that they do that they don’t mention on the blog I won’t go into that. To be honest, in my opinion some of them are 21st Century Joseph McCarthys. The reason they don’t mention this blog is because they don’t want to give it publicity. Try signing up with them and post something that refers to this blog. Even if it’s negative, they don’t want people to come here. My guess is that your comment will be deleted by them quickly. Of course, if they read this they might do the opposite. But give it a try and see what happens.
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I do beleive that those Ontheborderline are good people as well, they simply have a different way of getting thier point across. Sometimes I have to wonder what it is that some of them do for a living because they speak a bit over the average persons head.
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Read some of the ideas of their Philosophical heros like Ayn Rand. Author
Of the “Virtue of Selfishness”. The philosophical school of thought her followers believe in (Objectivism) is the antithesis of Christianity. These are ideas that deserve mocking.
Go to this website and see if you agree with this thinking? http://www.abortionisprolife.com/ or this
http://capitalism.org/faq/individualism.htm

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I follow the Hudson newspaper as well and I will tell you that at times I have to read and reread and find an interpreter to help me understand the point. Luckily I live with a scholarly woman who has a kick left! haha. But sure enough I must say that the current board of eduaction does have some issues to deal with. I beleive that they must think we are a bunch of idiots sometimes. Even I have noticed the playing with numbers and the jumping around and the inuendos. I do wish that they would just admit that they screwed up and move on. Ron was a definate problem. I golfed with him a few times in my day and I will say that cheaters always get caught, as he did. I for one was glad to see him bow out gracefully, better than ending up in jail I suppose.
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I don’t know Ron Bernth personally. I have heard much criticism of him around town. I don’t know if it is justified or not. As for the other Board Members, I think they are doing a pretty good job. Annette Cook has demonstrated a tremendous amount of patience with some of the people who publicly attack her and other board members . If you think we have problems, read about the New Richmond School Board. In my opinion,
If Mr. Weese is elected to our board there will be nothing but trouble.
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Goodness, it's late and time for me to retire for the evening. I look forward to our next conversation.
May we both be Blessed with a peaceful nights sleep.
Thursday, September 08, 2005
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I have enjoyed exchanging thoughts and ideas with you as well. It’s obvious that you are a good hearted man who has some ideas that I can agree with and others that I can’t . But the fact that we are having this discussion is a good thing. Have a pleasant night.; September 08, 2005
JPN said...: Concerning the point on an increase in home-schooling mention toward the top of these comments, in Wisconsin -- on the whole -- the number of students being home-schooled has declined. See the following Associated Press article from a couple of weeks ago:
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Posted on Tue, Aug. 02, 2005

Wisconsin home-school enrollment declines
Slower economy, decline in school-age population cited as possible contributors

Associated Press

MADISON, Wis. — The number of Wisconsin students schooled at home has declined during the last two school years after rising for nearly two decades, the state Department of Public Instruction says.

The agency said the 20,741 students home schooled in 2004-05 was much higher than the 966 recorded in 1984-85 but was down 547 students or 2.6 percent from the peak in 2002-03.

Tony Evers, deputy state superintendent of schools, cited both the economy and an overall decline in the elementary school-age population as possible reasons for the change.

"It's some people's belief that the home-school population, to some extent, reflects the state's economy," Evers said. "In order for someone to home school, someone who may have been working previously is able to stay home and teach. And when the economy slows, some people who might be home schooling have to go to work."

State Sen. Tom Reynolds, R-West Allis, who has had his children home schooled and introduced an unsuccessful measure this year to give home-school parents a $100 tax credit, said he thinks virtual charter schools, which allow students to take classes over the Internet from their homes, are probably also responsible for the drop.

"If you actually included them (virtual school students) in the statistics, then it is still growing," he said. "If those same families are taking advantage of the offers to make their schooling experience more affordable and they are no longer considered home-based, that would be the number that would skew those statistics."

But Wisconsin Virtual Academy Principal Daniel Hanrahan said his school run by the Northern Ozaukee School District is enrolling a smaller percentage of students who say they were formerly home schooled today than when it first opened two years ago.

The school initially drew the majority of its students from families who expected it to be no different than their previous home-schooling experience, Hanrahan said.

"But we're a public school. With that comes different accountability," he said. "For some families, that's exactly what they want."

But he said for others it is not.
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Admin's note: Because of the interest being generated by this topic and the ranging discussion, I move this to the top slot. If there are other topics that participants would like to discuss on separate issues or on more specific details, let me know and I will start a new post for that specific topic. Likewise, I you want to get access to add your own posts, e-mail me at ohwilber@yahoo.com and I can add you to the contributors list.; September 09, 2005
JPN said...: Concerning this comment from above:
"One thing I did notice is that this site seems to refer to them an awful lot.I enjoy reading both sites. This site makes fun of the way they think yet you say that we are welcome to have our own opinions...aparently that statement is untrue, except for you and I suppose. It is obvious that this site does not like anything about the ones who post on that site but yet I never read anything on OTBL that speaks badly of those on this site (refering to Abovethe border)hmm."
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We refer to www.ontheborderline.net because we are trying to make sure the community understands there are diiferent perspectives and they have a tendency to blow one note on their trumpet. They don't allow me to post anymore because they didn't like it that my facts countered their ideas and the discussion didn't go where they wanted it to go.
I can't go to their site and comment on their posts and the disinformation they put out. They have a closed discussion. On this site you can make your comments whether we agree or disagree with them. The reason I like to poke fun at them is because they like to slander anybody in the community that happens to believe in the long standing economic concept of "the public good."

If you notice, a lot of times "they" aren't talking over your head, but rather they are cutting-n-pasting the works of "big thinkers" who populate the "Ivory Towers" of past and present universities. They are more than welcome to join the conversation on this side of the border. To me, that is what a community conversation is all about.; September 09, 2005
Anonymous said...: I will comment later as I am in a bit aof a rush, but one thing I will say is that there is a lot of information out there about various things. I can go find 2 differnt places of equal value and get two different answers or prospectives for the same question. The same holds true for numbers. One company will say the homeschool level has dropped profoundly and the other will say it is on the rise. One says were overcrowded and the other says were ok., one says the welfare state is 20%, the other says it's 60%...do you see?
Which numbers do you choose to believe? the one of course that sides with your way of thinking or the way you want it to be. I have been on both sides of this fence over the years and the battles that are arising in Hudson need to cease becuase of what I stated above. Who can say this is true of that is true? The only one who has real truth that you can take with you when you die is the Almight Himself. These battles are a waste of time and it's the devil that instigates them to get you mind on less holy things. Poke fun at me if you wish, but know that there is something much more important that you should be spending your time doing.Lets remove our own splinters before trying to remove those from others.
God Bless; September 09, 2005
Anonymous said...: You'll probably be shocked to hear this.
I only read your post quickly but I think I agree with everything you said. When someone like you speaks the truth as you have here, I don't see anything to poke fun at (even if I wanted to try :-))
How do you propose ceasing the battle?
I think it's going to be extremely hard to satisfy both sides, and there have already been some deep wounds created.
Thanks for your wise comment.; September 09, 2005
JPN said...: Who created the deep wounds? Was it the pro-public education people or the anti-public education people? The debate isn't pro- or anti-education. The debate is pro- or anti-public education.

The OnTheBorderLine group tends to be made up of anti-public education proponents. Some of their talk might sound like they want accountability in from the school board on tax dollars spent. This is a good thing and the district administration should be held accountable. Some OTBL'ers what the public sector to pay for their kids to go to private schools. This might be a legitimate idea that may have merit, but I would only want my tax dollars going to support schools that allow any child in. The OTBL'er will say they only want their $2,000 in property taxes to go toward tuition for private school. That's where we come up against the concept of "public good." The $2,000 is going to pay for buildings, payroll, transportation, etc. that make up a school district.

Some OTBL'ers want the public sector to cover the entire cost of sending their children to a private school. OTBL'ers use an annual tuition cost of $3,500 and say this should be paid for by the public -- even though that OTBL'er may have only paid $2,000 in property taxes. The average OTBL'ers will argue that they are saving the school district money becuase it costs an annual average cost of $11,500 to educate a student in the Hudson public school system. Because $11,500 - $3,500 = $8,000, the OTBL'er that thinks this way says the district says $8,000. But that's not the case. Private school students ride public school buses, they use the school facilities, etc. The math does not slice as cleanly as the OTBL'er might present it.

I have no kids in public school and never have, if I paid $2,000 in property taxes, shouldn't I get to keep my $2,000? I believe in public schools and think they are an important asset to America's future. More importantly, I believe in the importance of education and I don't really care if it's done through home-schooling or private or public education, but it needs to be done with equal accessibility for all.

The big debate of public v. private schooling really start when the courts force the public schools to integrate. You would think the a country that trumpmets to slogan "all men are created equal" wouldn't need forced integration. So it's not a question of arguing two sets of numbers or getting the beam out of one's eye, it's an equal opportunity question.

The OTBL'ers generally argue from the perspective of their own self-interest. They are interested in their own piece of property and pocketbook. To them, "selfishness"
is a good word. I don't believe in that agenda. I believe in the concepts of "community" and "public good" and these are on the opposite end of the spectrum the typical OTBL'er argues from.

Someone commented above about the gifts God gives us and that some are destined to be plumbers, doctors, lawyers, etc. I think you will find that becoming a doctor depends a great deal on whether or not your mother or father was a doctor. There are certain connections and income levels that help make doctors. I don't think that God is as much of a mirco-manager as that person does. I think future success is determine by a combination of good parenting, income level, looks, connections, ability to overcome mental and physical liabilities, willpower, guts, drive, goals, direction and a host of other attributes that definately include luck. Do you think the reason very few African-American doctors grew up in poor neighborhoods has less to do with God's destiny for the individual and more to do with the who, what, when, where and why you were born. Check out a couple of books written by Ben Carson, a top Black surgeon, or Booker T. Washington's "Up From Slavery" or Ron Suskind's book "A Life Unseen." They might give you a feel for the type of determination it takes to beat the social, cultural, monentary, etc. odds.

I'm not trying to make fun of anybody's religous beliefs here. Your beliefs come from your upbringing and environment and mind developed through my upbringing and experiences. I never to force my beliefs on anybody, but I will fight for what I believe in. Who knows...maybe God put my here to spread the word about how wrong and damaging the OnTheBorderLIner agenda is for the common good and communities we live in. For me, "The Sermon of the Mount" was way more influencial to me than Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness" -- a favorite of the OBTL'ers book club.; September 10, 2005
Anonymous said...: I hardly think that God put you here to fight the OTBL's. If you read you r Bible you would see that God has a much bigger plan for you, for me, for everyone. He is more concerned with unity and love of neighbor. I did not have a spiritual upbringing, I had to stop and listen and do. Whoever you turn out to be, whatever you do in life has little to do with you, you are not in controll. If you are in control, you are not doing the will of God.

The folks on the borderline are only looking for accountability, that is how this whole thing began. It becomes very clear that it is easy to spend someone elses money faster than it would be your own. We would have a very "rich" school district if money was not squandered so easily.
Tear this down, build this, build that....Sometimes it is necessary, sometimes it is not.; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: At a recent boad meeting, a family petitioned to allow thier two children to leave Hudson and attend another school closer to where the parents work. The parents told the board it was a hardship on them because they could not get to Hudson in time for the children after school. Yer the other school was walking distance to work. There fore they needed to ask to the disctrict to let thier two children go so they could attend shcool elsewhere.
Arnie Fett said no, he said we couln't afford it.
Was this about the concern for the children? No it was only about money. He didn't care that these two small children had nowhere to go...
"quality" what?
There is no excuse for that
We also have children attending Hudson that do not live in Hudson, if we are so short on space at(at last count we had 46 more students in the entire district than lst year. what is that like 5 desks per school)than why do we not allow these children to transfer, and not allow children to leave?; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: So you think that all the borderliners want is accountablility? Well lets check out this scenario. When Mr. Shaw last addressed the board. Board member Crimmins offered to take her vacation day and sit down with Mr. Shaw and go over the District accounts and expenditures with Arnie Fett. You can see this on the very videotape that the borderliners put online. If the all ther borderliners wanted was accountablility why didn't they accept this offer from Board Member Crimmins? I'll tell you why, because it is not accountablility that these folks want. It is the dismantling of public education. They have stated so on their blog too many times to count. So I'm afraid that you've have swallowed their lies hook, line and sinker. And you might consider signing up for that fishing class.; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: If you had taken the time, like I did to call Mr. Shaw and ask him why (he's not listed but goes to St. Pats and is in the directory)He explained to me that he travels quite a bit and it just so happened that he was going to be on the road, I beleve he said to Janesville.
You see there is always an easy explanation for everything if one would only take the time to ask the questions rather than talk behind peoples backs.; September 12, 2005
JPN said...: 1. Concerning Mr. Shaw and all of the OTBL'ers dealing with school board issues, can you tell me how many have actually called Mr. Fett to arrange time with him to personal go over any financial numbers in question or being disputed? I have talked to Mr. Fett a few times to resolves issues with the numbers posted on the OTBL site and he was more than willing to spend time with me. We were able to reach an understanding over the phone so I didn't have to meet with him in person. He said he has made the same offer to OTBL'ers but they have refused to me with him.

Are the OTBL'ers always "on the road" or do they only come out at night, i.e., after regular business hours. It would seem they would want to meet face-to-face with Fett and look over the books. I've asked for the same information from the business manager in the New Richmond school district and had the same invitation that Fett offers.

Just becasue the school board does cave in to the in-your-face antics of the OTBL'ers, is a good thing -- in my mind. They were the ones elected to the board. They should consider the opions of their constituents in their decisions, but that's not the only driving force. For an example of this an a higer level, see George W. Bush. I believe he's the one the likes to day he doesn't "govern by the polls."

2. I believe if someone living in the district wants to attend a school in an adjoining district, they have to find someone to swap property evaluations from that district. This usually happens with people living on the district borders. I doubt that there are students within walking distance to a school in another district that are being bused to Hudson district schools. Maybe you can be more specific on your example and if this is the case, we can write a letter to the editor and point how silly that arrangement is.

3. "Judge not for ye shall be judged" is a saying I like to consider, when people starting telling what is or isn't God's will.; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: Well that settles it. Mr. Shaw can call Mr. Fett and Mrs. Crimmins and let them know when he'll be in town and able to meet with them. You are right things could be so simple.; September 12, 2005
JPN said...: I'm sure that will work. See how easy it is to discuss these things and come to a rational resolution.

What should we trackle next?; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: I can not beleive how mean spirited you are being on this blog. You are no different than the people you complain about.
"It's my way or the highway" type attitude I hear from you. Why do you need to make fun of people mr. judge not...

If you only knew the real meaning of that passage.; September 12, 2005
Andy Rand said...: I just reread JPN's comment. What part of it do you find mean spirited? Maybe I'm biased, but I think he matter of factly explained his position on the issues. Is that mean spirited? He's asking Mr. Shaw who says he only wants accountability to sit down with the one's he wants held accountable and discuss the matter in dispute.
On issue #2 he even offers to help you argue your cause if the situation is as unfair as you have stated.
JPN's comment is not seem mean spirited to me.
I think this is mean spirited: copied from the borderliners blog.

----------------------------
Mandatory meeting for all Socialists!!

Filed under: Humor --- Ruthless @ 11:19 am
____________________________________________________________________________
Attention all socialists, there is a mandatory meeting this evening at the
High School Auditorium at 8:00. Please come early to get a good seat as
every teacher and administrator, plus their spouses and other leading
liberals in town will be in attendance. Remember that in order to maintain
the high quality of pay and fringe benefits, uh I mean education in Hudson,
we will need your vote this evening. Please advise your friends in
neighboring towns that they can come and vote also, as there is no sign-in
and the vote is simply a voice vote, so there is absolutely no way of
knowing if the people who vote actually live in the Hudson School District!

Remember, it is your civic duty to show up and gouge the taxpayers once
again. I know that this vote is absolutely meaningless, as the school board
actually votes on the budget in October, but this is where you can show
those nasty concerned citizens that YOU ARE IN CHARGE!

I look forward to seeing all of you there. "Support Hudson Socialism" bumper
stickers will be available at the door.

----------------------
Now I suppose your side thinks that is just hilarious. Maybe to them it is.

Please send that mean spirited comment to them as well. Maybe it depends on which side of the fence your are viewing things. My guess is that this is hilarious satire to the borderliners. To teachers, I think they might feel offended being called socialists.; September 12, 2005
JPN said...: Heck, I probably wouldn't even have this blog up, if the OTBL blog didn't kick people off who don't agree with their agenda. I believe in having a little fun mixed in with the serious issues of discussion. If you dig around on this blog you will find that I make fun of people who might be in agreement with this blog.

Do you have a couple of examples of the "my way or the highway" attitude you mention? That would be helpful in understanding were you are coming from...; September 12, 2005
JPN said...: I appreciate Dr. Phil's example from the OTBL website. They like to label everybody who doesn't agree with them a socialist, etc. That is why I keep attaching them to the John Birch Society. Did around in my previous posts and you will see where I get this from. I have had heard comments that refute my tagging them with the JBS label. Check out the JBS website and read some of their stuff and you will see were they are coming from.

The commentor above seems to know Mr. Shaw and his phone number. My he would call him up and see if that is the case. I see things posted on that site written by Lew Rockwell. Did you know his father started the American Nazi Party and used to picket the White House in the 1950s carrying a sign that said "Ike is a Kike!" It seems the OTBL'ers were the ones calling Hudson "Nazi, Wisconsin" a few mounths back. Did you know that Lew Rockwell also wrote a column supporting Cindy Sheehan's anti-war encampment at Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas. I don't think the OTBL'ers will be sharing that column with their readers.

Also, the OTBL'ers like to cite writtings from the CATO Institute. Did you know that the founders of the CATO Institute are among the most vocal supports for the legalization of drugs, e.g. pot, etc. Likewise, they are supporters of gay rights and pro-choice. I doubt will be reading those CATO white papers. The CATO Institute is also very much against government regulations against big corporations -- especially corporations like Exxon, DuPont and a host of other major polluters who pumped large doses of cash into the propaganda and misinformation that aims to confuse legitimate science.

In the politcal septic system that the OTBL'ers present, they only tell you the water in the tank is clear. They don't want you to know what happens from the toilet bowl to the drain field and beyond.; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: Yes, okay, I read thier posts and you know what? They are having fun with it. Thier blog isn't a public forum. They never advertised anything, you did. They seem to have a sense of humor about things.

I have a friend who lived in Germany until oh, about 25 years ago. One thing he said to me one night was that the USA isn't far from what Germany was. He said they take away your rights inch by inch, create new laws and fool people into thinking "this is good". History tends to repeat itself my friend. beware.; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: Earlier I noted that you spoke of the cafeteria at the High school and how overcrowded it was. I took a ride there today. The answer to the lunch problem seems easy enough. Expand the cafeteria.
As far as the hallways: the plans for that school include plans for expansion if necessary. If we took the administration out and built them a new building that would solve the overcrowdedness problem without spending so much money. RIght?; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: Did Mr. Fett tell you that he said he would meet with "them" but would also charge them something like $60.00 or $75.00 (sorry can't remember the exact $$ )an hour?; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: Hey, you have to admit that the teachers benefit packages are a bit extravagant.
At who's expence?....Now who's being selfish?

Didn't the board double the budget last year?; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: "They seem to have a sense of humor about things."

Your're joking right, tell me you're joking? They are the most humorless crowd on the planet. If you want a good laugh stick around here.

"I have a friend who lived in Germany until oh, about 25 years ago. One thing he said to me one night was that the USA isn't far from what Germany was. He said they take away your rights inch by inch, create new laws and fool people into thinking "this is good". History tends to repeat itself my friend. beware."

Can't argue with this one. Ever hear of the Patriot Act. Now there's some serious rights takin awaying. Don't think you're gonna hear the borderliners arguing to repeal that non-sense, after all their boy Bush is guarding us by checking out what we get from the library, what we do at the bank, what we post on the internet and write in e-mails. Yup you're right they tell everyone it's a "good thing".; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: "Did Mr. Fett tell you that he said he would meet with "them" but would also charge them something like $60.00 or $75.00 (sorry can't remember the exact $$ )an hour?"

Didn't hear that one my friend. If it's true that's outrageous. I think you're mistaking that with what they charge them for investigating their 300 some requests for information.
I think the next largest number of requests in any district in WI is 13.

Anyway, he repeated that he'd meet with anyone about budget questions tonight at the school board meeting. No mention of charges. Verify that one then put it out on the net. I think you doing some serious misinformationalizing her my friend.; September 12, 2005
JPN said...: 1. Mr. Fett didn't say anything about a charge. As a matter of fact, he mentioned the OTBL'ers specifically -- of course I was talking to him concerning I comment I was preparing for the OTBL site -- and said they can come in a meet with him anytime. Hey, if the OTBL'ers are afraid to sit down with Mr. Fett, I will be glad to take time off work or arrange sometime and go in with them and to a meeting with Mr. Fett. Why would he charge for this? Of course, when the OTBL'ers bombarded the board with all kinds of information requests, as a taxpayer, I think they should get nicked monetarily for that -- especially since they would go in and meet face-to-face with him. What are you afraid of? I my opinion, a private individual should have the same access to school administration officials as a newspaper reporter. It appears that the administration in Hudson and New Richmond have an "open door" policy. If you find that this isn't true, let me know and I'll work with you on the letters to the editor.

I seems that all those OTBL'ers must be first-born, males. They don't seem to want to mediate a discussion. It isn't a black-n-white world. It's a community with give and take and a spit-shower, in-your-face presentation of your side of the story isn't going to win too many arguments. Just because a schoolyard bully gets the smaller kid to say "uncle" or eat dirt does mean he won the fight.

2. Why would I have to "admit that the teachers benefit packages are a bit extravagant." Compared to what? Do you mean on the average? Say I take 10 grade school teachers from St. Pat's and 10 from EP Rock and add their benefit packages together and divide by 20, will that be extravagant? If I compare the average benefit packages of 10 weekly newspaper reports in towns the size of Hudson with 10 K-12 schools, I can bet the reporter will tell you the teachers have an extravagant benefit package. I know factory workers in the valley who are high school dropouts that make much more that teachers with a four year degree.

Are you talking about salary and benefits or the whole package together?

3. Yes history does tend to repeat itself. A month or so ago an OTBL'ers posted that he wished we could go back 100 years when there was no income tax and the moms stayed at home...and women wouldn't be getting the right to vote for a few more years, half the workers in the Southern mills were 14 or under, there wasn't any child labor laws, factory workers, miners, etc. were treated like cheap, disposable machinery for which the company wasn't liable for the health and safety of. Striking workers were the receptitories of bullets fired from government troops protecting the property of robber barons. Is that what you mean be history repeating itself?

It certainly looks like we are heading in that direction. You got and neighbors, friends or relatives working at Northwest? You can see where that union is heading. That should make the OTBL'ers happy. When these 2,000+ skilled machinists lose their jobs, benefits and big chucks of their retirement packages, then what?; September 12, 2005
Anonymous said...: My father went through the same thing the mechanics are going through over 20 years ago at Continental Airlines. He was a pilot and the owner came in abolished all contracts and forced the pilots union to go on strike. The airline suffered two bankruptcies before turning around in the late 90's. Northwest is headed in the same direction...they have alienated the workforce and now are alienating their customers, I for one will never, ever fly northwest again!; September 13, 2005
Anonymous said...: "I for one will never, ever fly northwest again!

If only the unions would stick together with this type of resolve.

'Northwest has traditionally treated it's workers with distain. These are the inevitable results of the totally unrestrained freemarketer philosophy put forth by our friends ontheborderline.
The loss of these jobs will most certainly enhance the Hudson economy (not) Wake up boys!!! This is what the Bush administration is aiming to do to all workers, Wal-Martized them.; September 13, 2005
Anonymous said...: You guys like pinning everything on Bish don't you? Did you talk like this when Clinton was in office too? I hope so cause if you didn't it only shows that you are exactly what you clain the otbl's to be.
"If I agree with it , its' ok..."
We all have out opinions about things. Why do allow the otbl's to get to you. I have heard them say that they don't agree with Bush on everything!

The rich get richer? I don;'t think so. We make 150,00.00 a year, take a guess as to how much the govt takes out of that? A 150,000 sounds like a lot but by the time they take out all of our taxes, we have a minisquel (sp) amount left. So if we put more in than Joe who makes 30,000 a year than why should we not get back more than Joe?
BY the way when your in this higher tax bracket there so many things the govt won't let you deduct or only give asmall deduction for siuch as college loans etc.
scenerio:
Should we pay the same amount of money for a loaf of bread than Joe?
Your answer should be yes. It shouldnt matter how much you make or how big you house is. A loaf of bread is 1.49 for me and 1.49 for you.

Here's another scenerio:
We have 11 people living in our home, our home is an average 4 bedroom home-
Jim, our next door neighbor, has a beautiful 3 story mansion and has only 2 people living in his home.
Question: Should Jim pay more for property taxes than us?
Answer should be no, but it is yes.
Question: Does Jim use more city services than us? Chances are..no he does not.
We will use more police services throughtout our stay, we use the roads more becuase we have 6 cars vs Jim's two cars. We have teenagers who are out driving at all hours... we use more water, gas and electricity etc etc etc........................so why is Jim stuck paying more taxes than us?
Because he has a nicer, more ecxpensive home? THe tax laws are rediculas. They should tax everyone the same and tax us on our purchases, than it would be fair.

As far as the union things: I gues it depends on what side of that fence your on also. It also depends on the union. The trucking co my dad worked for was union and it was very bad. Whne a new guy came to work and he worked hard, the others would take him aside and "warn" him to slow down because he was making the rest look bad. The union was a good thing , when it began but has turned into job security nomatter how good , bad, fast, slow or how lazy you are.
I remeber when we toured the High School, they had a senior take us around. We stopped and peeked in this particular classroom: Heres' what we saw: An older man at the chalkboard, talking and writing away, one student sleeping at the table, one student reading the paper sitting on what looked like a small sofa or perhapps a loveseat, another playing with his cell phone, another reading a book etc. When we asked the student what the deal was, she explained that he was still many years from retirement and that he was the worst teacher ever but there was nothing thay could do because he was union. I will never forget that day walking in the west wing or that classroom, or the students comments about it.; September 13, 2005
JPN said...: 1a. Bush. Can you give me an example where I've pinned everything on Bush? I'm only responsible for my posting here. If you are talking about the hurricane, then you didn't read the complete posts. I blamed everybody, including you and me.

1b. Concerning Clinton, I didn't vote for him in 1996. I voted for the Libertarian candidate. I would have voted for Gus Hall, but I think he was dead by then. I didn't vote for Clinton because he lied to us. When they asked him if he had sex with that woman, he should have said it was none of your damn business -- and it wasn't any of our damn business.

2a. Taxes. A person making $150,000 should pay more taxes than a person making $30,000. I beleive you are opposed to the person making $150,000 paying a higher percentage in taxes. That is your right to oppose that. However, I believe in a progressive tax system where the more you make the higher percentange you pay. The OTBL'ers would like a regressive tax system where the more you make the lower the percentage you pay. They might not say this like I just did. But that is what they are getting at when they talk about tax credits and tuition reimbursements for sending their kids to private schools. They don't want their tax dollars going to fund public schools. I don't want my tax dollars going to fund the war in Iraq, but I don't have a choice on the matter...or I do have a choice, but I don't like the consequences that result from those choices.

I don't know what tax deductions you get at the $150,000 income level, but at the $50,000 level I basically get to deduct property taxes, home loan interest and charitable donations. I do my own taxes, know the forms fairly well and don't think someone at the $30,000 income level gets more deductions that me. If they rent, they don't get the property tax and home loan interest deductions.

However, at the $150,000 income level, remember that you are paying approximately on half the percentage I pay on Social Security deductions, because you are over the cap. So Social Security is a regressive tax. The $30,000 income earner is paying the full amount on SS.

As far as deducting college tuition, that would be another form of regressive taxation or welfare for the higher income earners. Do you think the $150,000 income earner has more financial assets to send their kids to college that the $30,000 income earner? Let's say it cost $5,000 to send you kid to college, that's 16.6% of of the $30K earner's income or 3.3% of the $150K earner's. If I was going to give anybody a tax credit, I'd give it to the $30K earner.

Now we get into a social discussion. Why does someone make $30K v. $150? Is the $150K smarter than the $30K? Is it luck? Genes? Inheritage? That would be the focus of the progressive tax system to redistribute some of the wealth to the lower income levels and help float their boat.

I went to college, but that wouldn't have given my Dad a tax deduction. The reason is becuase I paid for it myself by working, students loans, grants and schlorships. I think any parent who doesn't make their kids work for a significant portion of their college education is doing their kids a big disservice.

3. Three story mansion v. 4-bedroom house (I only have a two-bedroom house; you must live in a mansion). Property tax is based on the asessed value of your home. The mansion is probably asessed more than your house. You should be paying more for city sewer and water, because of the 11 people living there. You are paying for what you use. Concerning the roads, you pay more because you pay for six annual registrations. Likewise, those six cars probably get driven more, use more gas and pay more road tax per gallon of gas.

I'm sure the property tax system has some problems with it. It's different in every state. You should do some research into this an let us know what the options are.

4. Unions: I've never belonged to a union. I know guys who have work for a union all their life and will tell me just want you said above. I know others who think the union is next to God in importance. In general, unions have done many great things to improve the working conditions of America's factory workers, miners, transportation, trades, etc. workers. However, the unions have been in decline for decades and will probably continue to do so. The working world is always changing and the future doesn't look good for a lot of today's workers. It looks good for business and consumers, but the future is going to suck for many industries. Remember the steel industry in the 1970s? A lot of steel workers went from $20/hour jobs to $7/hour jobs. American Hoist and Derrick moved out of Minnesota to ditch the union and went where labor was chearer. Compaines are outsoucring to foreign companies. You better learn how to drive a truck, because all those outsourced parts have to be hauled from the coast.

I'm pretty nuetral on unions. The commenter above seems to be against the teachers' union and he/she pretty much based their judgement on one snapshot observation. The student tour story sounds kind of fishy to me. Did the student tour guide really say the teacher was there because the union was protecting him? How many K-12 students even know or care there is a teachers' union -- unless their parents are posting on the OTBL blog site.

You said it was "an older man" who "was still many years from retirement." I thought one of the gripes was that teachers got to retire so early. How old are you? I'm 50 and I've got 12 years till I can retire. Was he older than me? I remember when I was in high school, there were two age groups of teachers: old and really old. Later I realized that some of the old ones were only five years older than me.

Some you are condemming the teachers' union on one snapshot observation of one classroom. That seems to be a rather small sample size to make such a judgement. Do we know how other students felt about this teacher? I know I've had teachers that I thought were excellent and other thought they were worthless and visa versa. I have also had teachers that students really like because they didn't have to do any work and the teacher was a pushover. I prefer bigger sample sizes before I make such judgements. Maybe you have more examples that you could share with us concerning teachers.

It just seems a little too quick on the trigger to be condemming a union on one snapshot. I'm certain there are things that need changing with the teachers' union. However, I don't think we want to go back to the good old days where there was no teachers's unions -- all though the OTBL'ers would like that. I can imagine a number of those teachers in the local private schools are more than a little jealous about the salary and benefits a certified, license public school teacher gets.

Of course, the grass is always greener...; September 13, 2005
Anonymous said...: Anonymous said...
You guys like pinning everything on Bish don't you? Did you talk like this when Clinton was in office too? I hope so cause if you didn't it only shows that you are exactly what you clain the otbl's to be.
"If I agree with it , its' ok..."
We all have out opinions about things. Why do allow the otbl's to get to you. I have heard them say that they don't agree with Bush on everything!
---------------------------------------------------------
Call me Anonymous 2:

As for Pres. Bush. I had an open mind toward him during his first term. I did not vote for him, I would never vote for him. The main reason is that he is not an intelligent enough man to be the leader of the free world. You can tell that every time he opens his mouth. This became excruciatingly apparent when you say him speak next to Prime Minister Tony Blair. I really believe that Pres. Bush is not calling the shots. You’ll notice that he has many, many cabinet members and advisors who have very close ties to the former Reagan administration. These people have been waiting in the wings to force their political ideas down our throats for years. They’ve been funded by big business for years in the right wing think tanks. President Bush in my mind is a pretty boy nice guy front for the people who really hold the power in this country. An amiable dunce being controlled and manipulated by people behind the scenes like Karl Rove and Go “F---Yourself” Vice Pres. Chaney. (Talk about setting ethical standards).
When Pres. Clinton was in, he raised taxes in 1993. What were the disastrous results?
An unprecedented 8 year economic expansion. Now you have this clown in ( yes, I am biased). He’s cut taxes to the richest Americans and there’s been 5 plus years of economic stagnation. Where’s the beef? The is no beef, especially for working or middle class America. Anyone whose lived as long as the 3 of us having this discussion should have been able to predict that this would be the result of Bush’s supply side, trickle down economic policies. President Bush’s own father called this “Voodoo Economics” and that’s exactly what it is. There is no trickle. Contrast that with the New Deal that actually did work and got this country out of depression.
President Clinton was not the economic left winger that the Republicans paint him to be.
(Remember NAFTA?) I think they resented him because he continually outsmarted them and his policies worked. As an individual, Pres. Clinton did not display the highest moral character.
He did put in place solid economic policies that brought prosperity to the country.
Look at the mess we have with Bush. I’m judging by the fruits, not my personal like or dislike for the person. Do I blame the Bush Administration? You’re darn right I do.
This is what happens when you place people in high government positions who have the philosophy that government should be dismantled. It’s as plain as the nose on your face.
Bush has been the worst president in recent history.

On Unions:
I’ve studied the early history of unions in this country. Before Unions people, including children, worked in factories 12hrs/ day, 6 days a week for a wage of close to $1 a day.
If you got injured and couldn’t work it was too darn bad. (God’s will I guess). You were on your own. (like Bush’s ownership ,on your own society). If you were old and broke, it was too damn bad. Social Security, Workman’s Comp. Unemployment Insurance the 5 day work week, all the result of what unions fought for. Now these things are being dismantled.
Do some take advantage of these programs illegally, yes. They will have to answer to God for that in my opinion.
As for workers taking young workers aside to instruct them in the “rules of the workplace” that is, slow down to not show others up. I’ve had this happen to me in factories that were non-union. This happens in almost every workplace union or non-union.
As for Northwest. They are hiring permanent replacement workers. Why, because other airlines were able to cast them off and raid their pensions, and the Supreme Court of this country ruled it legal. If Northwest survives, these scabs will be asked to take even further pay cuts. Whose going to stand up for them? There will be scabs ready to replace the scabs.
Now, for your income level. If you make $150,000 is it because you are 5 times smarter than a teacher? Do you really work 5 times harder than a teacher? If you have 11 people in your home you should have 11 standard deductions. At $9500 each, that’s $104,500 in deductions, and as JPN said you pay lower Soc. Sec. Tax. Don’t get me wrong I don’t begrudge you earning what you earn, but I’m guessing that it’s not to difficult to make the car payment on a very nice vehicle, or to put gas in it or go on vacation, or save for the kids, college. Are you rich? From the perspective of a teacher whose spent 20 years in the classroom and making $40,000, probably yes. From your perspective you probably don’t consider yourself rich. Compared to the millionaires and billionaires of this country whose ranks are steadily growing you probably are not rich. If you compare almost anyone in America with the average Mexican, we are all rich. It is relative.

As for the Schools:
I have heard stories about the school that agree with some of what you said. Kids sleeping in class, not paying attention etc. Is that the teacher’s fault? Yes, in part.
Yet they are not allowed to discipline these students. Is it the students fault? Probably mostly their’s if they are not interested in learning. I heard from a HS. Student recently.
An A student. This student’s math class had a small number of very good students, the rest were close to failing. The teacher, seeking a way to remedy the situation asked this A student what he could do to get the others engaged so that they would do better. The A students response was that the teacher was doing all he could, it was the students who chose not to participate and try to learn. I’ll think you’ll agree, you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. From what I’m hearing, some of these disengaged students are the offspring of OTBLers. Now if you have parents who don’t value or respect education what do you think will be the result in their children. Maybe the union could play a small part in this failing, but I’m pointing my finger in part at the parents.
I think another part of the problem is morale. I know from first hand experience that public sector workers are constantly being berated as wasters of tax payers money. Year after year they hear there’s a budget crisis, don’t expect any raises. The message from the public is you are wasting our money, not “thanks for trying hard to educate our children”.
Do you think that would inspire even the best teacher to try harder? The only thing teachers do receive are decent benefits. Now those are being attacked, why, because business is cutting back on the benefits of private workers to enhance their bottom line.
So, the teacher benefits look extravagant. If teachers didn’t have decent benefits, what do you think would be the caliber of people applying for those jobs. Probably the same as those who stock the shelves at Wal-Mart.; September 14, 2005
Anonymous said...: (Anonymous 3)
I was under the impression that teachers became teachers because they liked to teach, not because of the money or the benefits packages. The teachers in the private schools make considerably less and have basic benefits. Yet, the kids that come out of the private schools are way ahead of the game. THis I know for a fact, as even most of the teachers at the high school will tell you that about the kids that came from St. Pats.
We ran many kids through St. Pats and most of them, A+ students, so far the ones who have graduated HHS, graduated with honors and yes, they have OTBL parents. I don't think you should label us just becase we view or post on OTBL.; September 14, 2005
Anonymous said...: JPN said...

I'm not quite sure this is a direct quote from the OTBL'ers -- but a little shunk told me they talk about it at their team hot tub parties -- "100 years ago they didn't need computers in school. Those chaulk slates worked just fine. All the mothers were staying at home, directing the colored servants in the proper stoking of the home fires, mixing martinis, preparing the slippers and rolling back the satin sheets for daddy's awaited return from a hard day of fighting legislation that would creat child labor laws."

Not true in any regard.; September 14, 2005
Anonymous said...: JPN said...

I'm not quite sure this is a direct quote from the OTBL'ers -- but a little shunk told me they talk about it at their team hot tub parties -- "100 years ago they didn't need computers in school. Those chaulk slates worked just fine. All the mothers were staying at home, directing the colored servants in the proper stoking of the home fires, mixing martinis, preparing the slippers and rolling back the satin sheets for daddy's awaited return from a hard day of fighting legislation that would creat child labor laws."

Not true in any regard.; September 14, 2005
Anonymous said...: "Anonymous said...

I really don't get how you can drive around a town and say that it's growing in student population. Most of the housing according to Dennis something or other, sorry I can't think of his last name but he works for the city. He said something to the affect that it's couples or older people that are buying in. My understnding was that the numbers projected by the school district were way off and that the actual numbers were down in the elementary schools and the high school only increased by some 46 students."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The final numbers have not come in as of yet but this number is pretty darn close. divide 46 students amongst all the schools in Hudson. I beleive we have 6 schools thats only 6 students per school.; September 14, 2005
Anonymous said...: I can't even get on the blog, so I just read it for entertainment and information.; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: Anonymous said...

(Anonymous 3)
I was under the impression that teachers became teachers because they liked to teach, not because of the money or the benefits packages. The teachers in the private schools make considerably less and have basic benefits. Yet, the kids that come out of the private schools are way ahead of the game. THis I know for a fact, as even most of the teachers at the high school will tell you that about the kids that came from St. Pats.
-------------------------
No there's a true statement!; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: Another Anonymous - anwsers Anonymous 3

(Anonymous 3)Said.
I was under the impression that teachers became teachers because they liked to teach, not because of the money or the benefits packages. The teachers in the private schools make considerably less and have basic benefits. Yet, the kids that come out of the private schools are way ahead of the game. THis I know for a fact, as even most of the teachers at the high school will tell you that about the kids that came from St. Pats.
-------------------------
No there's a true statement!

-----------------------------------
You are correct. The kids @ St. Pat's
receive an incredible education. I know
from personal experience. But think about the teacher's there. The men have to resort to fixing the houses of their students parents and selling vegetables from their garden in order to survive the summer.( And before you criticize me for bringing this up, No, there is nothing wrong with the honest way of making more money) Is that a valid financial reward for the fantastic job they do? Their love of teaching doen't pay the mortgage does it. Every St. Pat's teacher deserves double what they are being paid. But rather than drumming up support for St. Pat's teachers. The borderliners are too busy beating down the public school teachers. St. Pat's doesn't have a Special Ed program to my knowlege, what are these parents suppose to do quit their jobs and home school? Borderliners aren't concerned about the quality of education, they are concerned about their property taxes.
Here's another thought. Why don't the borderliners get off their butts and try to establish a Catholic High School in the area instead of wasting all their time blasting the public school. Like you say most St. Pat's kids go on to the HS. So this is how you support them continuing their education by berating the High School and the teachers who continue their education.
Borderliners truly deserve the moniker
(as our psuedo intellectual friend from Mississippi is fond of saying)of Anti-Education. They have earned it!!!!!!!; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: You are correct, The focus is always on how "little" it costs to educate kids at St. Pats' and Trinity AND THEY DO OFFER OUTSTANDING PROGRAMS but these teachers are so underpaid, let's double their salary and see how balastic the borderliners go when they have to pay 5-6000 a year instead of 3000.; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: Those hot tub parties? Are you talking about the Pawlenty Pals Blogging Association. Do the Borderliners get together with the Powderliners? If the 2 of them got together would they turn into Eyeliners? Isn't Pawlenty going to call a special hot tub stadium legislative session to fix all the social inequities over in MN?
Will the new private corporate stadium suites have hot tubs? I sure hope so. Now there's what I call ECONOMIC STIMULUS-
a proper role for government!!!!!; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: Sorry for the cut and paste, but the comment above questioning why the borderliners don't try to start a Christian High School in Hudson brings to mind one of my favorite posts from donttreadonme Bil Danielson from 11/22/04. You might want to put on your aluminum foil hat after reading this one:

"I attended an 'open house' this evening that was supposed to have been an informational session regarding the aparent opening of a new high school (ecumenical) this coming fall. The first freshman class would attend a temporary facility in River Falls until the new building is online - fall of 2006, to be located in Hudson "just off of I94." The cost is roughly 40 million. The school is named Holy Cross, named after the St Croix River. The room where this open house meeting took place (at the Hudson YMCA) had some handouts and on the wall was a draft layout drawing of the school.

Now, one would think that a new high school opening in the very near future would bring numerous parents out and be met with an open question and answer period. Such was not the case. There was only a tape recording of a radio interview with the promoter of the new school and there are now some serious questions regarding who this character is and what the future really holds for this would-be new school. If the promoter was out to alienate the very people he would be drawing on for students, he did a great job of it tonight. It was a terrible presentation; in fact, it was no presentation at all.

I was left with the lingering feeling of frustration. The St Croix Valley needs several private schools to go online, to save us all from the spend and then tax government schools. But what we don't need is a controversial cloak and dagger 'presentation' where no questions could be asked which left all who attended with more questions upon leaving.

I confronted the promoter who indicated a willingness to meet privately at a later date. I plan on taking him up on that. Inquiring minds would like to know what the heck is going on here - could there be some coordination with the government schools? Perhaps a sinister plot to create a nightmare scenario that would put a dark face on the whole idea of private schools? One wonders, because this blogger would put nothing past the socialist promoters and apologists of the government run education system.

Data accumulating...."; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: The funny part is that I don't see these teachers complaining about "how underpaid we are" and if we felt that way we would be applying for jobs at the High School since the HS tends to overhire teachers every year. Where of where will we put these new teachers? Oh I know well cram them in, put them on carts and make them run around the school with no real classroom and than say were overcrowded.Now there's an interesting scenerio.

At St. Pats, we had teachers with carts but we never complained. It's just the way it was. SUre it was nice to have a classroom but we can teach from a cart, we can teach in the park...
If we love teaching that much, it doesnt matter how much we get paid. We enjoy gardening and house painting and carpentry in the summers, we also teach music lessons and voice...
You see for ones of us who are truely living thier faith, we know that nothing is free, we know that we have to offer up any inconveniences, we don't complain, we find the good in all things. God has a lesson for us in everything that we feel goes wrong in our day or in our lives.
"Give back to Ceasar what is Cesears" We cant take it with us when we die.; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: Hey, all I know is that you guys are a minority in this town.
Remember the referendum? Oh what referendum, it got voted down!; September 15, 2005
Anonymous said...: Dear St. Pat's poster.
1st. I'm very reluctant to criticize St.Pat teachers because I know you do a great job over there. But...

I'm afraid that you have a few flagrant contradictions in your statement. You claim that the HS puts teachers on carts just to say they are overcrowded. Then you say.

"At St. Pats, we had teachers with carts but we never complained. It's just the way it was. Sure it was nice to have a classroom but we can teach from a cart, we can teach in the park..."
So if you have carts its why?? Not enough room? If public school teachers have carts it's because they're hired so it looks overcrowded???? What if the outside felt that St. Pat's teachers were on carts to look overcrowded. This is a very biased remark and makes a silly assumption of the public schools.
Didn't St. Pat's just recently have a campaign to build your new addition?

Is that because Hudson is not growing?
Please let's be realistic. And seriously, can you teach in the park in the middle of January?
I'm sure that parents and students are grateful for your service to the school. You say "If we love teaching that much, it doesn’t matter how much we get paid." Perhaps many St. Pat's teachers are in the enviable position of not having to need to be paid much.
Supportive husbands or whatever.
Not all teachers have that luxury, they rely on their salaries for survival. If you personally feel that it doesn't matter how much you are paid, I commend you for your unselfish service. I just don't believe that is the position most teachers find themselves in. There is someone who posted above who makes $150,000/year and they don't seem very satisfied with that. Why should public school teachers be satisfied with $30,000/year? Please continue the great work you're doing at St. Pat's.; September 15, 2005
JPN said...: I have question here. I concerns public school teacher pay. Obviously, some people involved in this discussion are teachers and/or know teachers. Does anybody hear a majority of teachers complain about what they are getting paid? Teachers I know don't complain about pay and they don't complain about the benefits. These are all teachers in public schools.

They complain about the facilities, the equipment, the legalities of being able to discipline students and/or the administration's inability or unwillingness to enforce discipline. The complain about too much parental interferrence and not enough partenal guidance, These are teachers that work locally and in the Twin Cities, so I'm making a broad statement here.

I can speak from the perspective of teaching part-time at the college level where there are no benefits and the pay for a night class, once a week for a semester nets you more than the same amount time spent employed at McDonalds. My complains would be on the facailities and equipment. If you got your class scheduled in the room with the up-to-date equipment, it was great. If, however, the next semester you get stuck with old equipment, it's presents an entirely difference set of challenges. You work through the challenges, but it's rather annoying and puts an additional strain and drain on your time -- time that could be better spent preparing material and working on your class presenations.

------

Someone mentioned above that they thought teachers became teachers to teach not because of the salary and benefits. I'm sure this is a fairly true statement. I'm sure many who graduate from college and go into K-12 teaching find out quickly it is not for them and move on to something else. It might be pay, it might not fit their personality type, etc. But it is important to keep the good teachers in the profession. Some might get out because they don't like the system they are working in.

I went to college to be a newspaper reporter. After graduating, I quickly found out the salary was going to be low, the benefits meager and the hours long. I hung around the business for a couple of years and got in to a different line of work. I hung around with a few teachers just out of college and they make more than twice and much as me and had benefits. Any complaints they had about pay around me were drown out by me.

I'd sure there are problems with the teachers' union that lead to inefficiencies and protect under-performing teachers. I think all unions are prone to this. But they also protect teachers from the types of exploitation they faced in the pre-union days. There is room for improvement in the areas of administration, teachers benefits and salaries, paternal involvement, etc. But if you don't understand the importance to the future of our country's ability to compete in the future and the role the education of our children plays, you are not paying attention.

You can argue all you want about getting prayer into school or teaching evolution, but those only take the debate away from the fudnementals that need to be tought to move our children to the upper areas of education that we need to compete.; September 16, 2005
Anonymous said...: JPN,
The reason that pay and benefits are being discussed here is because all I ever hear from the borderliners is about the Cadillac Health Care and teacher salaries. If you look at the budget salaries are indeed the largest item, because that's what you need to teach students, teachers. So, the borderliners who want lower taxes, will whine about what the teachers are being paid and their Cadillac Health Care and suggest it be cut down to Wal-Mart style health Insurance. (Do teachers seem healthier than borderliners? Mentally I'd say YES.) Don't tell me you haven't seen that on the blog? You know that the philosophical leadership of borderlinerland would have no taxes whatsoever.And thus no public schools. All taxation is theft by the looting class from the producing class, remember. Teachers = Looting Class.
Von Mises cut and pasters = Producing Class. I always wondered, other than B.S. what the philosophical leadership of borderlinerland does produce?
JPN, I'm afraid you have been sleeping in class and have not earned the right to a passport (or password ) to borderlinerland.; September 16, 2005
JPN said...: The last time I slept is class was in Mr. Elher's class at Hudson Junior Hugh. He embarrassed me so much, I haven't done it since.

I know what the OTBL'ers are up to. I always wonder why they never complain about the wages and benefits that go to Hudson city workers. I believe they get paid quite well, have excellent benefits and retirement and vacation plans. I suppose teachers are the easy mark. It's a big budget item and one OTBL'ers can miguided the uninformed with. I might have forgotten that they do quote Rush Limbaugh on occasion and, if their readers take anything he says with out running it through a decontamination units as gospel, it's no wonder we are having this debate.

I guy I know who listens to Rush everyday at lunch and thinks FOX is the only non-bias network on TV, laughed when I told him the teachers in the Hudson district get "Cadillac" beneits. The reason he laughed so much is because he wife teachs in Hudson. She took a pay and benefit cut when they move to this area. However, they also took a big hit in property taxes.

I've talked to some that have been severly taken to task by the OTBL'ers who think there's a serious problem with Wisconsin's proterty tax formula. Maybe the issue isn't so much what a teacher gets paid but rather what the OTBL'ers pay for property taxes.

Does anybody have any expertise or information on what goes on in other states concerning public school funding and local property taxes?

I personally don't bitch about my taxes. I know there are inefficiencies with the system and government waste, but those things exist in private business also. It would be interesting to lower the volume on "Cadillac benefits" v. "Government Theft by Property Taxation" and find out what the root is to the problem.

...I have to go take a nap...; September 16, 2005
Anonymous said...: I personally don't bitch about my taxes. I know there are inefficiencies with the system and government waste, but those things exist in private business also. It would be interesting to lower the volume on "Cadillac benefits" v. "Government Theft by Property Taxation" and find out what the root is to the problem.
-------------------
Than by golly, why don't you take a stand and try to figure out what the problems are instead of just going along and not bitching about them? If you know there are indfficiencies in a system (as there are in almost all systems) than why not dig into it and try to be an asset to the public?

---------
The fight here is with the board not yall. Whethere you want o believe it or not, thee has been many falacies in this system and many have been fixed because of these men looking into it and asking questions and getting records requests. Somewtimes they get a little out of hand, yes, that would be thier pride but as a whole, they have accomplished quite a bit that the board doesn't talk about nor do they want to and they are instructed a ssuch. DOn't be fooled. The boeard want these guys to dissapear for more reasons thatn you are aware of.
I think your "side" of things really got messed up with Mr. Mcklinsky's letters to the editor. He started to sound like a raving lunatic.
----
This fight isn't yours to fight.; September 16, 2005
Anonymous said...: Anonymous said...

Hey, all I know is that you guys are a minority in this town.
Remember the referendum? Oh what referendum, it got voted down!
---------------
(Anony 3)
Yes, good point; September 16, 2005
JPN said...: "Remember the referendum." Do you know how many referendums it took to get the current high school built? I think they started with the referendums in the mid-1960s and finally got it passed in the early 1970s. Just because a referendum gets voted down doesn't mean you don't need a new school building.

----

Actually, I've seen very little accomplished the OTBL'ers. A referendum got voted down. The OTBL'ers tell use $4.5 million is missing. Nobody else thinks it's missing. The OTBL'ers are worried about gas mileage to a golf course in Eau Claire, nobody else is. The list goes on and on.

What is their agenda? I don't think most of them know what the agenda is. They just don't like to pay taxes or they want to send their kids to private school at tax payer expense, etc. Maybe they could do a posting that says heres our agenda...

Until then, we have to judge them by their words and actions. They don't want to discuss the workings of the school district directly with the administration and board members. They want to work outside the system and that's their choice. But it's also my choice to argue my agenda in the manner I do. I don't speak for anybody else on the blogsite. We all think independently, but we believe in a strong, open public education system. As I've said before, if you want posting rights, e-mail me a onwilber@yahoo.com and get rights.

This fight is my fight just as much as it is yours. You won't find me disappearing from the discussion.; September 17, 2005
Anonymous said...: as long as it's not Mcklinsky and his super intellingent "it's so simple" daughter martha.(even Arnie said it was complicted)
He mad an ass of himself in his last letters to the editor.; September 17, 2005
Anonymous said...: I don't ever remember seeing a Mcklinsky write a letter to the editor. Better unfog those bifocals my friend. Maybe you are referring to Muchlinski who exposes the folly of OTBLer's with something called "Satire". Maybe you could look that one up?; September 17, 2005
Anonymous said...: Satire is the use of wit, especially irony, sarcasm, and ridicule, to attack the vices and follies of humankind.
I did not see his letters as satire nor did 80% of Hudson. His letters were laughable, many actually felt sorry for him.; September 18, 2005
Anonymous said...: I think that figure of 80% as in "nor did 80% of Hudson" is a form of exaggeration. A technical used by people who argue without the facts. I serously doubt that anyone polled the city of Hudson to find out if they thought a letter writer was using satire. Also, laugher is often times associated with satire. So maybe Mr. M was effective in his letter writing.; September 18, 2005
Anonymous said...: Yes, that is the same technique the same people use to measure growth in Hudson.
They drive around Hudson looking for "House for Sale" signs, and if they see them up more than a month they conclude, Hudson is not growing, then publish their "facts" ontheborderline. It doesn't matter that it goes contrary to all published data on area growth, including a front page article in the Hudson Star Observer recently. This is obviously a much more reliabel method of projecting the need for classrooms than relying on experts in demographics. Ever hear of anecdotal evidence? A favorite technique of
Snake oil salesmen, like donttreadonme.; September 18, 2005
Anonymous said...: well sorry boys, I don't have that statistical savy that you hold. I volunteer an average of 30 hours a week in many areas in Hudson and speak to many people, including those who hold offices in Hudson and all I know is whatI hear.
You can think what you want.; September 18, 2005
Anonymous said...: I have been reading and reading and I have one thing to say. You men sound like a bunch of highschoolers.
You sound like a bunch of menapausal woman.
I dont care if you are above the border or on the border I think the whole lot of you are below the border.
Grow up and get a life.; September 18, 2005
Anonymous said...: Hmmmm, Male High School Student and Menopausal Housewive all wrapped into one. I'm trying to picture that metaphor???????; September 19, 2005
Anonymous said...: It wasnt you , you prideful pantheons that got them out of the HSO. THey got smarter and I'll let you figure out how.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
He who gets the last laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
I'm laughing so hard I cant stand it!
hahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa
whew glad I got that out!; September 27, 2005
Anonymous said...: oh dratsum!
you found me out!
See oh see who's behind the the new news in New Richmond!
OH OH our numbers are off? How could that be? How on earth did we duplicate those students names? Our numbers look good don't they??????; September 27, 2005
Anonymous said...: I have been reading and reading and I have one thing to say. The two response above sound like a bunch of junior high schoolers.
You sound like a bunch of Viagra-starved, dead peckers.
I dont care if you are above the border or on the border I think the whole lot of you are below the border.
Grow up and get a life.; September 27, 2005

9/17/2005

A New School Year Begins OnThe Border Line

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