tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post115912958024964723..comments2023-10-06T01:45:50.515-07:00Comments on Above The Borderline: It's Election Season: Time For The NRA To Shoot It's Collective Mouth OffUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159564179826296482006-09-29T14:09:00.000-07:002006-09-29T14:09:00.000-07:00So then Cato; are you implying that there shouldn...So then Cato; are you implying that there shouldn't be majority rule, but and elitist rule?? We have a multi party system, should there only be one party twisted to your skew of life???<BR/>I'd suggest that with the majority rule, and the checks and balances system that we have, though not perfect, does help prevent a totalitarian state. A system that you seem to support may become that. Might/money makes right??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159562634996423522006-09-29T13:43:00.000-07:002006-09-29T13:43:00.000-07:00CATO:Perhaps of interest to you:http://www.utilita...CATO:<BR/><BR/>Perhaps of interest to you:<BR/><BR/>http://www.utilitarianism.com/jsmill.htm<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Mill also allowed that conventional economic analysis could not show that socialism was unworkable, and suggested as his own ideal an economy of worker-owned cooperatives. Commentators have argued inconclusively over whether this is a form of socialism or merely "workers' capitalism".Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159561072335414852006-09-29T13:17:00.000-07:002006-09-29T13:17:00.000-07:00CATO:You said:"To clairify something, I am sure al...CATO:<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"To clairify something, I am sure all of you self professed socialists are so-called "Democratic socialists", that is to say that you perfer government run institutions run by a government who takes it's orders from the majority. This is opposed to me, a person who perfers a government with no dominant factor, also known as a Republic and interestingly enough, the legal form of government in this country."<BR/><BR/>I have never claimed to be a socialist. It is your definition of Socialism that places people like me who believe that Soc. Sec. and public education are good into the Socialist box. That would most likely hold true of the tyranical majority of people in this country.<BR/><BR/>It's obvious that you don't believe in Democracy. I'd venture to say the vast tyranical majority does.<BR/><BR/>How long has it been since Mill introduced the idea of the tyranny of the majority, 140 years? Yet we have never had the pure Republic you speak of in practical terms. And by the way Mills on Liberty post dates the Constitution which I'm sure you're aware.<BR/>I remember reading On Liberty at the age of 19. Even then, though I don't necessarily disagree with Mill's arguement, I found him unrealistically idealistic.<BR/>It not that I find many of your arguements wrong, logically they are probably very valid. Yet from a practical standpoint they are, like Mill, unrealistically ideal. I find it admirable in a way, yet again totally impractical.<BR/><BR/>The type of "socialism" you accuse us of is in my opinion more democratic than socialist.<BR/>When you speak of "a government with no dominant factor". What exactly to you mean since you compare this to the majority.<BR/>Keep in mind that the "majority" is always shifting, usually not dramatically but always changing. In my opinion this is what keeps us from becoming extreme. When one side of the political spectrum gets too powerful, the other usually gains favor to bring us back into balance.<BR/><BR/>As far as Chavez is concerned. I used to find him an interesting provokator to the Bush administration. Some of what he has done has helped the less fortunate in his country could be seen as admirable, but I am beginning to see him as a budding dictator. His recesnt chummyness with Castro and Iran, and believe it or not his U.N. tirade against Bush have made me lower my opinion of him emensely. At the same time, it has raised my admiration for our country's tolerance of free speech. Can you imagine some other leader going to Venesuela and calling Chavez "The Devil" and leaving that country without a violent outrage against that leader?<BR/>I believe it is only in this country that one actually enjoys that kind of political freedom without retribution.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159548116834442602006-09-29T09:41:00.000-07:002006-09-29T09:41:00.000-07:00Well thank you andyrand, now I know who I am!!! I...Well thank you andyrand, now I know who I am!!! I'm a Christain, a Socialist, and an average middle class American Citizen!!! An "By-Golly", I'm OK!!!! and you know what, your ok also! We may have a conscious, but THAT'S OK!!! Hey, rather than make a profit, we may even stop and help someone in need.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159545772800442552006-09-29T09:02:00.000-07:002006-09-29T09:02:00.000-07:00Norseman,You just labeled yourself a socialist whe...Norseman,<BR/><BR/>You just labeled yourself a socialist whether you want to admit it or not.<BR/><BR/>You see, anyone who thinks Soc. Sec. ia a good idea is a Socialist. Anyone who wants public schools is a Socialist. The whole damn country and world is filled with those damn Socialists according to the reich wing. ( Goodwin's I don't care ).<BR/><BR/>Is it funny but my parents supported all those things 50 years ago, and you know what they called themselves?<BR/><BR/>MIDDLE CLASS AMERICAN CITIZENS!!!!!Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159542126683788062006-09-29T08:02:00.000-07:002006-09-29T08:02:00.000-07:00Cato;How can you compare the The (OLD) soviet Bloc...Cato;<BR/>How can you compare the The (OLD) soviet Block nations to any form os socialism?? I don't happen to be one by the way. The last I knew they weren't even close to the "Marxist" concept of Communism. I'd be more incline to label them dictatorial regimes.<BR/>To support a system that attempts (given human failings) to give everyone a chance to get an education, and provide the basic ability to survive, and an opportunity to succeed, seems much more desirable than a narcissistic environment where the only compassion is self and profit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159478660003138262006-09-28T14:24:00.000-07:002006-09-28T14:24:00.000-07:00CATO:Yes, you showed this to me before.I rejected ...CATO:<BR/><BR/>Yes, you showed this to me before.<BR/>I rejected it before and even watched most of it again so I could reject it again.<BR/><BR/>As far as Socialists multiplying around the world, I think it's quite the opposite. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the capitalists in this country have less to fear and are slowly dimantling the "socialist" benifits that the "socialist" FDR created to protect American citizens from financial devastation. Like Soc. Sec. etc.<BR/><BR/>I am not necessarily mocking your defense of the second amendment. I'm <BR/>mocking the notion you have that your punny little arsenal would even be remotely effective against the greatest military power that has ever existed on earth.<BR/><BR/>If you feel that enslaved by a government that allows you to say virtually anything you like and do almost anything you like I think you need to seriouly evaluate the freedoms that you do have.<BR/><BR/>I am concerned about the Patriot Act, probably more than 80% of Americans, but I don't have any fantasies about grabbing my guns and overthrowing the current leaders by force. <BR/>Should the U.S. even have a government so evil that it needed to be overthrown by force, your pip squeak weapons would be like pea shooters. Even the Iraqi's have figured this out, they are not attacking our forces with guns.<BR/>They have improvised much more effective tactics against us.<BR/><BR/>I am even more concerned about how the Republicans are hacking away at the very inferstructure that is currently public and for the use of all,and causing hundreds of thousands real economic pain as a result of their policies, than them knocking on my door at night and randsacking my home for guns.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159472844650327502006-09-28T12:47:00.000-07:002006-09-28T12:47:00.000-07:00CATO:In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 death...CATO:<BR/><BR/>In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004)<BR/><BR/>Source http://tinyurl.com/5ahtl<BR/><BR/>I thought it was you that was the rationalist and I was the <BR/>emotional whiner?<BR/><BR/>Are the thunderstorms over for the week? if not I gotta go hide.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>I have no idea how many people have been killed by Free Market Capitalists and no idea of how to calculate such a figure. There are just too many variables of greed.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159472350020953642006-09-28T12:39:00.000-07:002006-09-28T12:39:00.000-07:00Andy:Do a figure for how many people died because ...Andy:<BR/><BR/>Do a figure for how many people died because of free-market capitalism?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159472083446271102006-09-28T12:34:00.000-07:002006-09-28T12:34:00.000-07:00CATO:Let's stick to the U.S.(our government) in th...CATO:<BR/><BR/>Let's stick to the U.S.(our government) in the last 40 years.<BR/><BR/>In the U.S. 43 people died from being stuck by lightning in 2005.<BR/><BR/>An average of 2.5 were killed annually by the government.<BR/>Based on the death by government website of 100 over 40 years.<BR/><BR/>I'm 17.2 times as likely to be stuck by lightning and die than to be killed by the government.<BR/><BR/>I'll take my chances.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Gotta go buy a lotto ticket.<BR/>I'm feeling lucky:-)Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159469866852747332006-09-28T11:57:00.000-07:002006-09-28T11:57:00.000-07:00CATO:Some facts for you:Number of deaths for leadi...CATO:<BR/>Some facts for you:<BR/>Number of deaths for leading causes of death:<BR/>Heart disease: 654,092<BR/><BR/>Cancer: 550,270<BR/>Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,147<BR/>Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 123,884<BR/><BR/>Accidents (unintentional injuries): 108,694<BR/><BR/>Diabetes: 72,815<BR/><BR/>Alzheimer's disease: 65,829<BR/><BR/>Influenza/Pneumonia: 61,472<BR/>Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 42,762<BR/><BR/>Septicemia: 33,464<BR/><BR/><BR/>Nowhere on that list from the CDC,<BR/>did I find "Death by Government"<BR/><BR/>So I googled that, and found a page listing slightly over 100 deaths over several decades with a quote from (surprise, surprise ) Uncle Ludwig Von Mises at the top.<BR/><BR/>#3 on the the list of deaths by Government was John Africa of the infamous MOVE organization in Philidelphia.<BR/><BR/>Here are a few choice words from John to the Mayor of Philidelphia.<BR/><BR/> <BR/>May 13th 1985-War On Osage Avenue<BR/><BR/>"If MOVE go down, not only will everybody in this block go down, the<BR/>knee joints of America will break and the body of America will soon fall<BR/>and we mean it,"..."We ain't gone fuck around, if them mutha fuckers try<BR/>anything next door we gone burn 'em the fuck out, if they succeed in<BR/>commin thru the walls they are goin to find smoke, gas, fire and bullets...<BR/>Before we let you mutha fuckers make an example of us we will burn this<BR/>mutha fuckinin house down and burn you up with us. We know about all<BR/>those odorless chemicals yall can put thru walls to paralyze people or<BR/>put people to sleep, or even kill people..."But we got detectors, we got<BR/>canaries, and we got seorians (possibly a reference to saurians, which<BR/>are lizards)... if that detector shows signs of foreign odor in the basement<BR/>or any other part of this house, if any of our canaries drop dead, or if any<BR/>of our seorians begin to vomit or wheeze, we are goin to burn that god<BR/>dam house down next door and burn them mutha fuckers up in it."<BR/><BR/>-Excerpt From A Letter MOVE Members Sent To Philadelphia Mayor<BR/>Wilson Goode Two Days Before The May 13th, 1985 “Confrontation”<BR/>Between MOVE And the Police<BR/><BR/><BR/>Since I don't now and never have engaged in the types of activities that MOVE members did, I feel ( and I'm sure CATO would think naively so ) that I'm not in any imminent danger of being killed by the government.<BR/>I'd say my chances of #1 or #2 on the CDC list are a slightly greater concern to me, although I don't currently loose any sleep about those either.<BR/><BR/>Gotta run, I think Fleet Farm's having an ammo sale today.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159466497189212022006-09-28T11:01:00.000-07:002006-09-28T11:01:00.000-07:00Cato:Most of these things they teach don't exactly...Cato:<BR/><BR/>Most of these things they teach don't exactly appear to be lies to me.<BR/><BR/>However, suppose I went to a private school like Hill-Murray. Do you think I would learn a different spin on American history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159460038347793532006-09-28T09:13:00.000-07:002006-09-28T09:13:00.000-07:00Andy:It is entirely up to you to decide where or n...Andy:<BR/><BR/>It is entirely up to you to decide where or not you what to break the law. I happen to be wearing a striped shirt today and had a referee flash. Cato, he's all yours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159459407537210322006-09-28T09:03:00.000-07:002006-09-28T09:03:00.000-07:00666,Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!I didn't mean to invok...666,<BR/><BR/>Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!<BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to invoke Goodwin's Law.<BR/>I don't think I did, at least intentionally.<BR/>I'm so sorry. <BR/><BR/>OK, let's see, How bout I refer to the<BR/>coming tyranical socialist threat?<BR/>I that better??? 666?Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159457640548954582006-09-28T08:34:00.000-07:002006-09-28T08:34:00.000-07:00Cato:Point of information: when Andy uses the word...Cato:<BR/><BR/>Point of information: when Andy uses the word "Reich," is that like planning the Hitler card. Doesn't that fall under who's ever rule that was?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159455968723869032006-09-28T08:06:00.000-07:002006-09-28T08:06:00.000-07:00CATO:You convinced me. I'm on my way to Wal-Mart t...CATO:<BR/>You convinced me. I'm on my way to Wal-Mart to start building my personal arsenal (as JPN says emphasis on arse)to protect myself from the inevitable scenerios you've made me aware of.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to stop worrying about losing my job, and my health insurance, getting sick and amassing a pile of debt that will cause me to lose my home and every worldly possession I own. <BR/>Since I have a limited attention span , I can only worry about 1 catostrophic possibility at a time, so I will substitute my usual worry about lossing my job and the potential consequenses of that and start worrying about collecting my own personal weapons of mass destruction to defend myself from the inevitable coming of the American 4th Reich.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159455911181399552006-09-28T08:05:00.000-07:002006-09-28T08:05:00.000-07:00Cato:We are in agreement on whose responsibility i...Cato:<BR/>We are in agreement on whose responsibility it is to read the Constituion. It is every individuals responsibility -- if they choose (it's a free country).<BR/><BR/>You skipped over the quantity v. quality implied in my question and went on to talk about "lies" being taught in public schools. What are the big lies being taught in public schools?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159442946260516812006-09-28T04:29:00.000-07:002006-09-28T04:29:00.000-07:00Norseman, I know about all the studies and demogra...Norseman, <BR/>I know about all the studies and demographics have a big part in it.<BR/><BR/>I have been properly trained and am experienced in safety and proper handling of weapons, including hand guns. But given the freedom to conceal and carry never made sense to me. People make mistakes and if your statement about aquaintances being responsible for many shootings, why would I want to introduce another gun to that equation? I would not take the risk. I was in a gas station hold up in st Paul years ago and as I was face down on the floor, I was not thinking of how easy and heroic it would be to stand up, pull a 9mm and plug the robber. I certainly have the skills to do it, but agree with you that there is no way to understand the effects doing it would have had on me. I do know one thing, If I pulled it, I would not play police officer. I would use it. I am glad that I didn't have the option, yet may also be fortunate that that holdup did not go bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159370830499546452006-09-27T08:27:00.000-07:002006-09-27T08:27:00.000-07:00ragincrazin;Thanks for the post. I am in total ag...ragincrazin;<BR/>Thanks for the post. I am in total agreement with you. There is no "BIG BROTHER", nor is there a conspiracy to take our guns away. I also am a hunter. I hunt in both Minnesota, and Wisconsin, and each group I hunt with places a priority on safety.<BR/><BR/>I posted earlier asking for demographic information that hasn't been answered. The facts are that stranger assaults are proportionately rare. By far, the majority of firearm incidences are either accidental, or acquaintance related. A vigalante concept about toting a gun to stop the bad guy simply is perposterous. <BR/>It is very rare that an assailant telegraphs an intent to assault(especially in stranger assaults). There are other mechanisims availabe that would be much more effective than a firearm, in those situations. I'm not a proponent of people not having the right to own firearms, or to have them in their homes. But in all situations, safety should be a first priority. Negligence is what usually causes accidents.<BR/>The NRA supported carry conceal issue is poorly justified. I've seen the proposed NRA training and it's inadequate at best. The point where an individual desides to carry a firearm also creates a higher leval of culpability for that person. Think about it; A bank robbery is occurring, police respond to the robbery, and "Joe Vigalante" jumps in with a firearm. How would you expect a police officer to respond? What training, and psychological evaluations has that person gone through? At the point where a firearm is drawn, is the person able to use it, and able to accept the consequences? What about innocent people that are downrange? Carrying and taking action with a firearm is entirley different than the conceptual discussion of that act. It's real and you can't debate your action, call time-out, or do go-backs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159364111233230282006-09-27T06:35:00.000-07:002006-09-27T06:35:00.000-07:00Ragin:You take on the NRA is the same as what I ha...Ragin:<BR/><BR/>You take on the NRA is the same as what I have been getting from those avid hunters I've know all my life. I think the NRA has become another string the the Republican put arsenal that gets the one-issue gun voters to pull the ballot box lever for the Repuplicans. <BR/><BR/>I'd be interested to hear Cato defend the one-issue voters that solely sucker the NRA teat of the milk of misinformation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159328801458410692006-09-26T20:46:00.000-07:002006-09-26T20:46:00.000-07:00Back to the theme of the post, you guys are puttin...Back to the theme of the post, you guys are putting me to sleep.<BR/>I am amazed at the pressure the NRA applies when they call. I grew up in corn-fed big buck country in central Wisconsin. The kind of area where most farmers had the trophy bucks hanging in their barn long before opening day. Every birthday or Christmas one of my presents always was long and thin, and was made by Remington. I target practiced with Mom because Dad worked shifts and when I was old enough to hunt small game etc. I was forced to not only pass the DNR saftey course but also Dad's much more dificult course. I joined the NRA because dad said they supported habitat for hunters. Little did we know that they would become the extremist lobby machine tht they are now. I still hunt with dad and my yearly purchace of a deer tag makes me the choir that they need so badly to preach. My answer to the NRA phone rep is always the same. "You (NRA) have become a one trick pony that has forgotten your charter. You now feed off of fear and support weapons production that have uses only for crime, killing, and profits. I own a dozen (hunting) guns and I have no fear that my government has any intention of taking them away. The NRA should be ashamed, and abolished."<BR/>I think it is funny that my father and I, hunters and gun owners for life, quit the NRA. Meanwhile my brother in law (A Rush Limbaugh wannabe) who never owned or shot a gun in his life is a proud member of the NRA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159327538766426822006-09-26T20:25:00.000-07:002006-09-26T20:25:00.000-07:00Norseman:You said:"The constitution is based on th...Norseman:<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>"The constitution is based on the protection of all people, and yes from abuses by the government. however, that does not imply that any person serving in the armed forces has any less rights than you or I."<BR/><BR/>I won't judge whether the rights of those in the military are less but the are different. Military personel are under a totally different set of laws than civilians, the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice)<BR/>http://tinyurl.com/gm9u2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159327251444146412006-09-26T20:20:00.000-07:002006-09-26T20:20:00.000-07:00CATO:You make some really wild presumptions.1. "Ye...CATO:<BR/><BR/>You make some really wild presumptions.<BR/><BR/>1. "Yes I seriously think that a civilian army could destroy the army of the United States. 300 million v 1 million."<BR/><BR/>I find it far fetched, though no entirely outside the range of possiblity that the U.S. Government would become so tyranical that the entire population (300 million) would feel compelled to over throw it.<BR/><BR/>2.In Iraq, right now, our Army cannot hope to "secure" the area or whatever they hope to accomplish. Iraq is smaller than the US and does not have a history of its people leading and winning revolutions against tyrannical governments. Yes, alot of people would be slaughtered by the government in this type of scenario, but the government would not emerge the victor."<BR/>Even assuming this wild scenario,outlined in my answer to #1<BR/>as in Iraq, the only way to defeat a standing army is through guerilla warfare and mass disruption and violence achieved not by the cache of weapons stockpiled in our garages but by explosive devices, and other non-conventional warlike revolutionary tactics. A face to face shoot out with the Army would be doomed to defeat, and if the scenerio ever arose that the U.S. Government became so tyrannical the the majority deemed it need to be overthrown, I would want you to be planning the tactics with you pip squeak garage band arsenal. <BR/><BR/>3."However the fear is not of the US government occupying the US anyway, it's when the US government is too thin across the globe playing cop and some "terror" breaks out here that so-called "peacekeepers" (who are now authorized to do offensive operations, and have done so in Africa, and who Bush has called for having a standing army...) from the UN come in that would get me more worried.<BR/><BR/>Another amazingly fanciful pipe dream.<BR/>The U.N. is notorious for being impotent as a peace keeping military force. I can't imagine them ever being competent enough to defeat this countries Armed Forces.Andy Randhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05322038978217816765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159315592937290982006-09-26T17:06:00.000-07:002006-09-26T17:06:00.000-07:00Cato; yes I've read the document, and I also under...Cato; yes I've read the document, and I also understand that there is an understanding as applied in court defining the spirit of the law. The constitution applies to all citizens (the poeple) in this country. Sorry Cato but you're a bit too neurotic for me. <BR/>Contrairy to what you may think, there is not a class distinction based on the letter of the law. The constitution is based on the protection of all people, and yes from abuses by the government. however, that does not imply that any person serving in the armed forces has any less rights than you or I. Those rights in and of them selves are a protective shield, and incentive for all of us to preserve those rights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13208607.post-1159313053769678482006-09-26T16:24:00.000-07:002006-09-26T16:24:00.000-07:00Cato:When is the last time you spent an hour in a ...Cato:<BR/><BR/>When is the last time you spent an hour in a high school classroom? When is the last time you thumbed through a high school history textbook?<BR/><BR/>I found a copy of the high school history textbook I read in Hudson High in 1972-73. For goodness sake, they spent about 10 pages with pictures on the Civil War and slavery. They spent less on the Revolutionary War. General high school history courses are high level survey course. They are a squirtgun not a firehose. <BR/><BR/>You, like most adults, have faulty memories about what you learned in high school and what was taught in high school classes. I'm sure the Constitution was mentioned, but I wasn't an extrensive indoctrination where students where required to memorize the whole thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com